News Weinstein & hollywood

[Cyberluddite]

It’s not misandry for women to get pissed off about the male gaze in the workplace.

Nor is it m...

I agree, it's not misandry if a woman looks at men. However, it is misandry if a woman dehumanizes men the same way that Harvey Weinstein dehumanized women (referred to as "misogyny"). Not all A is B, and not all B is A. Are there a lot of guys who treat women like a piece of meat? Absolutely, my adoptive dad chased so many skirts that nobody would hire him by the time he hit 57 years old. (He even sexually harassed my half-brother's SIL, who was a DV survivor). But is it inherently a male thing, like that "XYY" urban legend? Absolutely not.

As bad as Weinstein is, and he's really high on the "50 Shades of Nope" scale, my adoptive mother could easily beat that man into "A Child Called 'It'" in less than 5 minutes without once laying a finger on him. She was sexually assaulted at age 4 by a babysitter, and when she said something to her parents (Grandpa and his first wife) they didn't believe her. When she saw her abuser get away scot-free, she decided that all men were to be painted in the same brush: evil, horrible, not human, just pieces of meat to hurt without remorse or consequence.

The first real memory of my adoptive father is from when I was 3 years old. I don't remember what it was I did that set him off (he was very short-tempered, it could've been anything a typical toddler does), but I remember him charging up to me, grabbing me by my upper arms and pushing me down to the floor, and screaming inches from my face with spit flying, telling me "if you ever do that again, I will come down on you like white on rice, you stupid sack of sheep S***!"

Dad was 6'4" and around 280-290 lbs back then... and Mom (5'10", about 130 lbs., and addicted to painkillers) broke him less than 6 months after they got married. So I do agree, @joeylittle , but it takes a bit more than just a quick glance to dehumanize someone the way that Weinstein and Taylor Swift do.

 

[Sideways]

but it takes a bit more than just a quick glance to dehumanize someone the way that Weinstein and Taylor Swift do.

So I let your comment about Hollywood being worse than the blood diamond industry go, because I decided that you weren’t being literal.

But, are you suggesting that Taylor Swift dehumanises people the same way that Weinstein has? Because, as far as I know, Swift isn’t being accused of sexually abusing over 30 people, and hasn’t been accused of rape.

The language seems to be getting a bit loose. That upsets me, because there’s real victims here, of some incredibly awful abuse. Real people. I don’t think it helps to start generalising to the point where every personality that we dislike gets thrown in as equally heinous sexual predators as Weinstein is being accused of.

 

[ms spock]

However, it is misandry if a woman dehumanizes men the same way that Harvey Weinstein dehumanized women (referred to as "misogyny").

That is not the focus of this thread. From my perspective you are hijacking this thread, and invalidating the very important conversation about men like Harvey Weinstein. We never get to have these discussions about men like Harvey Weinstein without these caveats which seem to indicate a minimisation of what Harvey, and men like Harvey do, and indeed when I have warned people about a certain man, this kind of shifting of the sands comes up, and then ten years later when the kids start to disclose sexual abuse by this man, people go 'Oh you should have said more!' Well when these types of hijacking of the issue occur I generally give up and move on. This is the same types of denial I have been dealing with from a small child to my teen years and beyond.

But is it inherently a male thing, like that "XYY" urban legend? Absolutely not.

The opening poster did not say women don't do other forms of abuse, so you are putting your agenda in and that takes away from and diminishes the contributions of other members, these types of derailing responses online and in real life form part of the complex threads that bind women in silence about their child sexual abuse and rapes, because there will always be certain people shifting the sands of the discussions and invalidating their lived reality.

I would suggest that you do some research and look at the statistics, there are simply not the amount of women doing the sexual abusing that men currently are, once again, if this is your beef, then show some respect and start a thread about it elsewhere rather than muddying the waters here, and invalidating other people's lived experiences. This is throwing up a red herring, and it is not helpful. And there is never a conversation about the Harvey Weinstein's of this world where these types of minimising discourses become prominent in shading so as not to be so bad because women do abuse or do certain types of abuse too. (No one said they weren't, and furthermore this is a thread about Harvey Weinstein and his rapes, not about a personal situation in your life.) It is minimising experiences like mine because there are always these shades of saying women do this as well too, but this is not a thread saying women don't sexually abuse or be abusive. It is a thread discussing the abuse of Harvey Weinstein, you are most welcome to start your own threads about this, but your comments feel like minimisation to me, and it is the same types of discourses and discussions which blur out the importance of these types of conversations and discussions. And it ultimately leads to the silencing of victims, I would never speak up about this stuff anymore because there are just hundreds of types of invalidation out there that are supported by the ways in which rape culture is incorporated and underlies a lot of our society. You are participating in one of the threads that make it so hard to discuss these issues. I don't know if you are aware of what you are doing, but it would be great if you would stop it, and go and start threads about your own issues.

As bad as Weinstein is, and he's really high on the "50 Shades of Nope" scale, my adoptive mother could easily beat that man into "A Child Called 'It'" in less than 5 minutes without once laying a finger on him.

This is a highly insensitive comment. This thread is not about you, and it is not about your Mother, or your perceptions of your Mother and her abusiveness. This thread is about the ways in which systemic sexual abuse of women and children is incorporated in institutions, like the film industry, as part of the ways in which men feel entitled to abuse their positions of power by sexually assaulting and raping women as the see fit, and how if women resist or complain they either lose their livelihoods, and positions in society. As terrible as what your Mother did, she is not in a positions to destroy the careers of a generation of young girls, young men and women in any institution.

Saying your Mother is more abusive than Harvey Weinstein is insulting and implying that you have suffered more via emotional abuse than women systemically targetted for rapes, attempted rapes, and other types of sexual assault, and intimidation by powerful men who can make or break their lives, professions and careers. The fear of being raped, or the fear of being potentially killed, or the trauma of being raped is not comparable to emotionable abuse of one woman in a very small sphere indeed. Your Mother may be a vicious, cruel, manipulative and devious person, but that is emotional abuse, it is not the rape of a generation of young people, and women. You didn't have it worse than women who have been raped. You deserve, respect, consolidation, compassion, assistance and validation, but not at the expense of other people who were raped and traumatised. They are not comparable. Your comments are not relevant to the thread, and they are insulting, minimising women who have been raped experiences. These are not reasonable responses. Responses like these need to be put in trauma diaries, or in threads that you start about your personal experiences.

She was sexually assaulted at age 4 by a babysitter, and when she said something to her parents (Grandpa and his first wife) they didn't believe her. When she saw her abuser get away scot-free, she decided that all men were to be painted in the same brush: evil, horrible, not human, just pieces of meat to hurt without remorse or consequence.

And that is just your opinon, your can't know what was motivating your Mother, your Mother may have been so damaged by her sexual abuse that she was unable to regulate her emotions and her interactions by other people, but it is not comparable with rape of a whole group of women. You are minimising rape and saying emotional abuse is worse, that is not a persuasive or strong argument.

A matter of fact is that men are doing widespread sexual abuse and sexual predatory behaviours through a whole raft of institutions i.e. see the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Sexual Abuse in Australia.

The first real memory of my adoptive father is from when I was 3 years old. I don't remember what it was I did that set him off (he was very short-tempered, it could've been anything a typical toddler does), but I remember him charging up to me, grabbing me by my upper arms and pushing me down to the floor, and screaming inches from my face with spit flying, telling me "if you ever do that again, I will come down on you like white on rice, you stupid sack of sheep S***!"

This thread is not about you or your abuse - it is about a man who has been attempting rape and raping women for a long time, and because of his actions and postion of power was able to run women who didn't kowtow to him to seriously hamper their careers, the opportunities and in a number of cases Weinstein ran them out of the film industry business.

Dad was 6'4" and around 280-290 lbs back then... and Mom (5'10", about 130 lbs., and addicted to painkillers) broke him less than 6 months after they got married.

Once again the abuse of an entire generation cannot be compared the abusiveness of one woman. This is not appropriate content for such a thread, and it serves to shut the dialogue down. Please start your own threads and diary on your abuse from your Mother and your Mother's abuse of those people around her - but she didn't have the systemic power that Harvey Weinstein had, she didn't have the ability to threatened or destroy people's career, and she wasn't protected by an insidious rape culture that enabled Harvey Weinstein to get away with, and profit from power he felt when he raped and get away with attempted rapes. You seem to be completely missing the point, and derailing this thread. This is not really fair to those that genuinely want to discuss these issues.

So I do agree, @joeylittle , but it takes a bit more than just a quick glance to dehumanize someone the way that Weinstein and Taylor Swift do.

WTF?

Harvey Weinstein has been reported to the police for his sexual predatory behaviours. How in any possible way could that be compared to Taylor Swift? Are there an entire generation of young men and young women, that she has raped and attempted to rape? Has she had young men go to the police and not have their rapes investigated because of her power and influence in the film industry? I thought Taylor Swift was a singer? Has she been trapping young men and young women and attempting to foist herself on to them? Has she been destroying or threatening to destroy young women and men's careers because they don't give her their bodies at the time and place of her choosing? Are there breaking stories of 30 plus young men naming her as their abuser? Are the police having to justify the fact that they didn't prosecute Taylor Swift?

 

[Sideways]

@Disco Dancing Queen - thank you for having the guts to say that.

I try and make a point of being non-gender specific when talking about sexual abuse, because it does flow both ways, and the damage done is the same, no matter the gender of the perp or victim.

But there does come a point in certain conversations, like this one, which is about a particular perpetrator (who was male) and the devastating number of victims,m (who happen to be all female) where the insistence that I always acknowledge male victims becomes distressing.

Statistics are clear that although abuse crosses both genders, the cultural dynamic of developed countries in the 21st century disproportionately (in fairly overwhelming numbers) is pitched to make women victims of sexual violence. It’s not that it doesn’t happen to men. But at some point, it has to be okay for us to acknowledge that you’re likely to be a victim of sexual violence if you’re a woman just because you are a woman. That’s the cultural reality, firmly backed up by statistics.

Yes, men are victims too. I encourage them to speak up and be heard and be taken seriously. But by the same token, the reality if you’re a woman is that you’re unlikely to get to the age of 30 without having suffered some form of sexual violence. That’s a pretty devastating reality to have to face. And at some point, it has to be okay for us to say “The cultural systematic sexual violence against women needs to stop”. That’s not me saying violence against men is okay. That’s me saying “Please don’t stop me from talking about this just because I’m female”.

And I’m conscious that might be a bit too controversial, so I will now voluntarily go and sit myself in the Naughty Corner!!

 

[ms spock]

I don’t think it helps to start generalising to the point where every personality that we dislike gets thrown in as equally heinous sexual predators as Weinstein is being accused of.

I totally get when you have been horrifically emotionally abused by your Mother than you wish to be heard and validated. My Mother is a truly destructive and emotionally abusive person, who helped totally destroy my life. But emotional abuse is not rape, that is the reality of the situation, and whilst emotional abuse has had catastrophic consequences for me life, it is not comparable to a group of women who have been sexually preyed about and raped. The 15 years of sexual assautle by the men in the family have left a legacy of physical pain, and inability to even be in my body and another set of consequences that I won't go into here.

You have a right to express your feelings and experiences surrounding your Mother, but you need to do that elsewhere, and not in a way that comes across as minimising and dismissing the systemic practices of a brutal rape culture across society, and implying your emotional abuse is worse than the lived experience of rape.

The reality in Australia is that 1 in 4 girls will be sexually abused before they turn 16. This is done predominately by male relatives of those young girls/women. This is a matter of fact, and not an opinion. This conversation is one tiny incurision in to rape culture, but it is an important one, and it needs to be allowed to have real space to grow so we can begin to tease the issues out, and not invalidated by inappropriate (to this thread) comments.

 

[ms spock]

But there does come a point in certain conversations, like this one, which is about a particular perpetrator (who was male) and the devastating number of victims,m (who happen to be all female) where the insistence that I always acknowledge male victims becomes distressing.

One thread is not a lot of space to take up in the world. It is not on distressing it is pretty poor form as well. It silences those of us who have tried to speak up and those that want to speak up.

Statistics are clear that although abuse crosses both genders, the cultural dynamic of developed countries in the 21st century disproportionately (in fairly overwhelming numbers) is pitched to make women victims of sexual violence. It’s not that it doesn’t happen to men. But at some point, it has to be okay for us to acknowledge that you’re likely to be a victim of sexual violence if you’re a woman just because you are a woman. That’s the cultural reality, firmly backed up by statistics.

And it is always headed off these days with the men are victims too, which hampers any discussion of lived experiences of women raped by their Fathers and other men. No man who talks about his rape has to say, "Oh yes and by the way I know that men sexually abuse as well!" No they get to speak as victims/survivors of their experiences.

And at some point, it has to be okay for us to say “The cultural systematic sexual violence against women needs to stop”. That’s not me saying violence against men is okay. That’s me saying “Please don’t stop me from talking about this just because I’m female”.

This

 

[joeylittle]

However, it is misandry if a woman dehumanizes men the same way that Harvey Weinstein dehumanized women (referred to as "misogyny")

I'm sorry; you are taking me more literally than I intended. Male gaze - Wikipedia

It is not misandry for women to discuss the very real experience of being treated as onbjects by men, looked at as f*cktoys by men, all the things that goes with being a woman in a male-dominated industry (of which there are many).

You seemed to be suggesting that for women to talk about this either dismisses the male experience of abuse, or somehow is offensive to men.

It does not dismiss anything to do with the male experience. And if it's offensive to men, I'd say that's their problem.

Are there a lot of guys who treat women like a piece of meat? Absolutely, my adoptive dad chased so many skirts that nobody would hire him by the time he hit 57 years old. (He even sexually harassed my half-brother's SIL, who was a DV survivor). But is it inherently a male thing, like that "XYY" urban legend? Absolutely not.

Calling it 'chasing skirt' is so far off the mark, I'm not sure where to begin.

Inherently male? No. Not all people are the same. But are men in the dominant and privileged position, socially/culturally/economically? Yes. The end. Nothing to argue, there. Saying that, is not the same as assuming that all men are abusers. So there is no need to weaken or challenge the factual statement.

As bad as Weinstein is, and he's really high on the "50 Shades of Nope" scale, my adoptive mother could easily beat that man into "A Child Called 'It'" in less than 5 minutes without once laying a finger on him.

50 shades of Nope? Sorry, but you are revealing your diminishment of what the women coming forward about Weinstein are talking about.

And none of it has anything whatsoever to do with your mother, or with psychological abuse. We are talking about sexual assault.

 

[EveHarrington]

Put the troll on ignore.

I did a few days ago.

 

[ms spock]

50 shades of Nope? Sorry, but you are revealing your diminishment of what the women coming forward about Weinstein are talking about.

I found it offensive when I was 15, and I find it offensive now, that any discussion of my being raped or other women stepping forward to talk about their rapes has this thread of minismation of those experiences interwoven with so many women are as bad/worse than men. So the actual lived experiences have no space in the exact places and discussions taking place. To even get to have a space to discuss your lived experiences of sexual abuse you have to wade through all this other stuff, which has nothing to do with the rapes, and attempted rapes.

You are right @EveHarrington that putting a troll on ignore is generally the best way to go, but in this instance I respectfully disagree. Simply put you can't put society and it's inherent rape culture on ignore @EveHarrington. Similarily I can't put my family on ignore. I couldn't put my school on ignore. I can't put the police on ignore. I can't put the media on ignore. I can't put the last guy that tried to set me up to rape me on ignore. I can't put my whole family that minimises my 15 years of sexual abuse on ignore -well I kind of do, but the constant nightmares shows I am not so able to ignore it - the emotional flashbacks and the panic attacks shows that the ignore doesn't really work. And if you do put things on ignore and you don't speak up at the time - and you speak up later, then you are either a lying, scheming, manipulative bitch out to destroy a really, really good and nice bloke's reputation or you have false memory syndrome - even when your Father was convicted and sentenced for two years for sexually abusing you as a child. That is just "the court's opinion" and if they knew what a nice, decent bloke that he is, then they would know that they made a mistake.

I don't know if you are aware but one of the recent killings of a women, and her children, in Australia, all his mates told the media "but he was a really nice bloke".

And if rape culture makes an incursion into your world - you definitely can't put that on ignore. Just as when I was a child, when my Father was getting ready to rape me. I couldn't put him on ignore either. I have witnessed over 30 years of these types of discussions, and there is always someone standing up for male victims, or the good blokes such decent blokes that get falsely accused.

The apologists for rape culture, or those that derail dialogues such as these, must be challenged, otherwise the intergenerational transmission of trauma and rape culture just continues. My niece is handed over to her Father for unsupervised contact, and there are concerns that she may self harm, but her Father is a very respectable man, a leader in the Christian community, an upstanding man at a very fine private school, who has many family members who are millionaires. And all the apologists for what he does, if he hit my sister she must have been very unreasonable indeed, because he is a good, decent, nice bloke, who would never hurt a fly. We can only hope he overdoses on the illicit drugs that he ingests. You have to stand up to rape culture, when you can, some days I do withdraw, but during my lifetime there has been no space and time to put rape culture on ignore.

 

[mumstheword]

@barefoot PR & Damage control. I've always wondered if this actually replaces m...

That's just a classic socio/psychopath thing. They don't feel anything for others but that they may be potential prey, or a threat to thwart them pursuing prey. So it becomes all about duping any and everyone they can, into believing they are something other than what they are.

 

[EveHarrington]

I found it offensive when I was 15, and I find it offensive now, that any discussion of my b...

Oh, wow, didn't realize you had such a big problem with me.

Put me on ignore then.

My point still stands as it's useless to argue with trolls whose sole purpose is to rile people up. Arguing with them gets you nowhere, but it gets them off.

 

[Cyberluddite]

I understand your concerns, @Disco Dancing Queen and @Ragdoll Circus , however there are women who are supporting Weinstein and attacking other women. That's what puzzles a lot of people -- how is this even possible, when it's obvious the guy's an absolute scumbag? How can women emulate and enable the very thing they claim to stand against?

It's absolutely fine to gaslight me, I'm used to it (and nobody should be okay with being told "you don't know what you're talking about, shut up and GTFO", even if they didn't grow up in that kind of household.) But when the same woman who does it to me, then does it to another woman, that raises a i huge red flag for me.

Last night, I gave a lot of thought about this thread, trying to see if maybe I was missing something. If maybe I was misunderstanding what was being said; it sometimes happens when things get stressful in a conversation, I misread and misspeak.

But in this case, I'm not so sure I misread the thread and I can't really apologize for my reacting to an enabler/handler who rightly dislikes Weinstein as much as most other people do. Betrayal never comes from your enemies, and the worst betrayal of all comes from your own gender. Your thoughts, @joeylittle ?

Now if you'll excuse me, I need some serious puppy therapy. I came here looking for guidance, and to learn how to manage my PTSD better.

And it's a bit overwhelming, but I'll manage it... I've been through worse than being called a few names. Thank you for being yourselves, it's been enlightening so far and I look forward to continuing learning.

"Storms can't hurt the sky." -- Buddhist saying