It Was "like" A Cult...but It Wasn't A Cult

[Air]

Empathy and not being empathic and sociopathy are different animals and this dualistic thinking is part of a problem of discussing empathy even remotely seriously

Being entirely unempathetic is sociopathy. There is of course a ton of middle ground in empathy, but the end result of promoting a lack of empathy would be promoting sociopathy.

If someone who never was raped and has no idea what rape is like uses it to describe just about anything that is not an actual rape, they normalize that usage, or that it is completely alright to do that with about any experience one can think of.

Of course we can imagine what rape is like to some degree. I think everyone who has heard or even read a story about something can imagine what it is like to be in that story. Imagine how dull every book or film would be if we were unable to imagine how the character feels or would react. No one who hasn't been raped has a full idea of what rape is like, that much is obvious, but most people can grasp the basics I imagine. As for normalizing the usage, I don't think that using rape in terms of a video game in any way changes the use of the word in other contexts. A rather remarkable feature of language is that words can have different meanings depending on context without hugely affecting it in other contexts.

Not only that leads to confusion, and ostracizing of actual victims, who are once again told to just suck it up, it is all humor.

I don't really buy into that. Humor often relies on taboo subjects, and that would not for one second take away my empathy for someone who actually went through it. Perhaps it is just me, but I have the ability to separate jokes and metaphors from true situations. In terms of jokes there's one I heard recently that goes something like how is a gay man like a tumbleweed? The answer is that it blows and blows until it gets stuck on a fence in Wyoming. Now this is a horribly offensive joke, but I'm gay(-ish) and it doesn't bother me in the least. Actually reading about the case that the joke is based on was really quite awful and disgusting, but I don't feel any less sorrow for that crime having read an off-colour joke about it.

And for populations already disadvantaged, and not taken seriously? That attitude can be -deadly-. Denied medical care, denied law enforcement help, denied access to other resources, focusing NGO workers in all the wrong directions, et cetera.

As I say, I don't think gay jokes truly have a negative impact on people. The idea that all jokes are rooted in someone's beliefs seems preposterous to me, and often I find jokes are the opposite of someone's beliefs. No one believes for a second that the person who was "raped" in Call of Duty has had anywhere near the kind of experience an actual rape victim has, nor do they believe that the actual crime of torturing a gay kid and leaving them to die is as funny as the humor in breaking the taboo around it. I think human being are generally not as utterly stupid as to see jokes and hyperbole and have it influence their views on the real issues.

 

[Ronin]

As I say, I don't think gay jokes truly have a negative impact on people.

Yeah, sure.

Look, if it does not impact you, nor you are from or living in places where simple being yourself, in this instance being gay, is a threat to life, be so kind and stop commenting it has no negative effect on people, as you are clearly not in a position to grasp that at all.

There is humor, and then there is using people as a punch line & using supposedly 'humor' to be derogatory and harmful. Humor can be as much a tool of propaganda and a weapon as anything else influencing opinions, hence behavior.

& Intent isn't magic.

Also, 'people aren't in general THAT stupid' is factually wrong.

 

[Air]

Look, if it does not impact you, nor you are from or living in places where simple being yourself, in this instance being gay, is a threat to life, be so kind and stop commenting it has no negative effect on people, as you are clearly not in a position to grasp that at all.

But that's stupid. I live around people who make gay jokes all the time and it doesn't negatively affect my life because I'm not in a place where being gay is generally frowned upon. That supports my point that jokes by themselves do not create a negative environment because if they did then I should be being executed right now.

 

[Sighs]

most people can grasp the basics I imagine

I think human being are generally not as utterly stupid as to see jokes and hyperbole and have it influence their views on the real issues.

With respect, I think you are wrong on both counts.

I think most people are completely unaware and unable to imagine the "basics" of being raped. They think they can, but they can't. I see this all the time in a slightly different context. My partner is a combat veteran. People think that because they've seen American Sniper they understand combat. They have no f&cking idea what its like to actually experience combat.

Secondly, I think you are dismissing the power of language. It is hyperbole to describe football players as "warriors" or a match as a "war of attrition" but it both inflates the importance of sport and diminishes the respect shown to our veterans.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Being entirely unempathetic is sociopathy.

No, that's the unablity to feel empathy.

Words opposite (antonyms) of empathy are - disdain, hatred, indifference, discord, disunity, apathy, mercilessness, disagreement, misunderstanding, and unfeelingness.

What are words that are opposite of empathy? - Quora

ETA: Sociopaths are usually anti-social, per definition, but that's not the same thing.

 

[Sighs]

I live around people who make gay jokes all the time and it doesn't negatively affect my life

As a white, middle class, well educated woman I could say the same about sexist jokes. Except that it does negatively affect me. It allows society to demean and belittle me based on my gender.

I think you are in denial about how language frames attitudes and attitudes affect experiences.

 

[Ronin]

@Sighs, thank you.

 

[theshadowoftheliving]

I don't want to veer to left of @Ragdoll Circus 's question that was posed in the beginning, and I almost never chime into any of these debates, but I just can't help but leave these thoughts here:

Jokes about rape minimize my own experiences. I wasn't raped in a the way that jokes refer to - it was the sort of thing that I can't even write about, never mind speak about, that ended in me sobbing in an emergency room while blood cascaded down my legs. To compare that to a joke,where Jo one really gets hurt in any way, is shaming. It implies that my experience isn't worthy of my reaction (the trauma reactions).

Jokes about PTSD make me feel humiliated. People joke about having PTSD about weather or financial issues or other stupid things and it, ultimately, has no impact on their functioning. My PTSD is debitating at times. The corollary is that, if they have PTSD and function, so should I, and if I can't, I should be ashamed of that.

Jokes about being gay are the reason that I'm well into my adult life and am now just starting to reveal my sexual orientation to the people I'm closest to. I live in one of the gay-friendliest places. I'm still scared to reveal because the stigma of being attracted to the same sex are so high. Gay jokes make my orientation seem likes joke. Gay jokes imply that my attraction and my love isn't real.

Language is powerful. We have to be so careful with it.

 

[Air]

They have no f&cking idea what its like to actually experience combat.

No they do not have the actual knowledge of what combat is like, but they do understand the basics in theory I would guess. It isn't the same, obviously, but it allows you to make some metaphors and to understand by analogy. This isn't me saying "oh everyone is basically a soldier" or anything, just that the theoretical grasp is there, even if actually experiencing it would be totally different. Like if I was trying to explain a mountain to someone who lived on a flat plain, I could make a mound of dirt and say they should imagine things thousands of times that size all around and being so high you're in the clouds, they would understand the theory. Or course they would have a totally different experience being plopped on a mountain, but they could gain some grasp of what it's like.

Secondly, I think you are dismissing the power of language. It is hyperbole to describe football players as "warriors" or a match as a "War of attrition" but it both inflates the importance of sport and diminishes the respect shown to our veterans

I would totally disagree there, this is again, a basic use of metaphor. I really hope we never have to live in a world where all metaphor is taken out of language and we have to be literal about everything.

No, that's the unablity to feel empathy.

You know, you've got me there. I suppose indifference is more the word that's actually the opposite of empathy, since if you can feel it but simply do not, that isn't sociopathy.

I think you are in denial about how language frames attitudes and attitudes affect experiences.

I don't think so, I think language is just nuanced enough to let us mean different things when we are joking or using metaphors than when we are serious. I think it's much more about the intent behind the language than the actual language. Like if I say "that nigga" in a joking way to a friend, I think it is much less racist than saying "that black person" with a sneer in a derogatory way (and saying "that nigger" without any context would be even worse).

I don't want to veer to left of @Ragdoll Circus 's question that was posed in the beginning

This is where I'm at now. Not because I want to back out of the conversation, but I feel like this is derailing the actual discussion, so I'm going to stop replying.

 

[Sideways]

People think that because they've seen American Sniper they understand combat.

This. This is what I'm getting at.
And I'm totally cool with some of the convo steering into language in jokes, because I think that on some level, the issue there is kinda what I'm getting at.

Point in case: I don't make derogatory jokes about Indigenous Australians. I'm guessing a lot of people who consider themselves in that group are a bit like, "Meh, dumb joke, doesn't have to impact my life experience." That's great.

But no way am I going to assume that every one will have that attitude.

So I think there's a similar issue there. Maybe some people are like, "Meh, you wanna call your experience cult-ish, that actually doesn't effect me".

But maybe it does for others. Maybe appreciating and respecting that difference of what they went through is just as inappropriate and disrespectful of the joke at some particular minority's expense.

If that's how the issue gets discussed and fleshed out, cool with that. It's still helpful...I think!!!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Empathy is part, a huge part of my job. Id say equal if not even a bit more important then the tech stuff. Empathy doesnt necessarly require you to have been there, so empathy and understanding are also different. All empathy requires is your abilty to put yourself in another's shoes. Now you may not understand rape if you werent raped (so "i understand" is very different then "i imagine that would feel horrible" as an example).

Empathy and sympathy is also different. Sympathy is "im sorry" where empathy is "i could imagine how horrible that may feel".

Sorry to go off topic. Simce it was being discussed i thought id throw in 2 cents.

 

[theshadowoftheliving]

I think empathy is key.

I once had a friend that kept making jokes about PTSD. It really bothered me, but once I told her I had PTSD (I never told her the jokes bothered me, just disclosed my diagnosis) the jokes stopped. She was empathetic, and I appreciate that so much. So, what is missing here is context, too. I'm willing to step back and acknowledge that I don't know the details of anyone's conversations and reactions off-board. What I do know, however, is that language is strong and I think constantly checking and questioning, like @Ragdoll Circus is doing is incredibly important. I applaude her.