Too much laughter in sessions, how to navigate consulting with another therapist?

[blackemerald1]

@Justmehere ....glad you blocked her. Or turn the phone onto silent or meeting.

That is weird behaviour.

Changing a 'standing' appointment time is usually something that is discussed in person.

 

[hithere]

She just texted. Basically, she moved my time slot to a time I can't do, for the next two months, and forgot to even ask me about it. If she would have, I would have mentioned it doesn't work. We have been meeting at this time slot for awhile. She can meet for 20 minutes later on tonight.

Also, she decided now is the time to tell me is going on vacation.

Right now, what this shakes out to be... I can see her for 20 minutes in just over an hour, right after a difficult work meeting (it's via video conference). We are going to have an unexpected 4 week break unless someone else cancels and my schedule works out to travel to her office two hours away for that appointment.

I told her to please stop texting at this moment. I can't breathe.

wow you are handling this calmly, because my inner "traumatized kid" would just freak out--I would feel so discarded and not cared for--someone else gets to walk in and have a session that you had on your books--I'd be asking why isn't this other person be told, "sorry I overbooked this appointment and JustMeHere had it first" Why does she not make the other person take the brunt of her mistake? If she really did not communicate with you about the standing appointment changing. I take some lessons in a sport I participate in and I sent a text confirming my regular spot-my coach responded that she is on vacation this week and never told me. OK, I can see mistakes happen but I was a bit put out--I have a business that runs on "schedules" -- now I have a full morning where I could have done busines--- I got over this mistake of my coach very quickly. I would have been really put out if she stuck another student in "my" spot. I would quit my coach and find another one, or request some sort of compensation like a free lesson.

It bothers me therapists can be so ignorant about how their scheduling errors hurt people who are hurting. Not to mention just "customer service" issues, because the therapist is running a business. I would not tolerate this in a business relationship. But since they know we have all these emotional needs and are barely holding our shit together they feel they can flippantly do shit like this to us knowing we will just "get over it"

This is like a repeat of the trauma aspects--at least to me it would be. (my family didn't care about me unless I was happy happy happy all the time. no needs! no needs! Sure take whatever you want from me! Especially when I'm down, go ahead and kick me! Ok, go ahead and choose other people over me because they are more interesting and appealing! and, I will say nothing about it the way I feel. I would think the other person is more important, has more needs, and since I'm the "strong" one I would step aside. Story of my life!)

I'm probably not being helpful and throwing my own wounded soul emotions out there. I'm sending you internet hugs to your wounded self, and wishing I could say something really helpful, but I have no words. I want to go kick this therapists ass after reading this. (did I read it correctly? She took a standing appointment from you and gave it to someone else without asking? and assumed you could come whenever she decides? The same one who laughs when you are trying to access traumatic emotions?)

This is a lot to process to say the least. I would reeling.Hang in there!

 

[Friday]

Left to my own devices and thinking, I would have quit.

A break isn’t an option. It would be the end of treatment for the forseeable future to not go.

Whenever I’m thinking... f*ck it, I’m done with therapy, I quit (and similarly, there’s no one else I can see, locally)... My therapist goes on vacation :facepalm::hilarious:

Which has worked out, oddly enough, or perhaps not oddly at all. I get a few months break & -to date- have gone back when he returns. One of these times I may not.

But, for now? Taking the next 2 months off until she returns from vacation & frees your time slot back up, might be a way to have your cake & eat it, too? Try some time off therapy & see if you really want to go back to it with her, or not?

 

[Justmehere]

I have a hyper-awareness of exactly what this shift is, for myself. It's very important, first, that you simply slow down.

This makes sense. I can do this with friends, but in therapy, I just keep going and going.... It's very habitual. We actually agreed that if I get to the point of asking her to stop laughing, that we will pause, and she'll check in with me.

If that's really true, then she's a really shitty therapist. I doubt that's true, given everything else you've said about her. I think that it's 100% appropriate for her to modulate her own responses - that's part of her job. The fact that you've told her to stop and she hasn't, is weird to me - weird like, I wish I could see a videotape of an exchange that went that way, so I could see if she's really that callous and clueless, or if it's more complicated than that.

Fair point. She's not generally a jerk, and I'll own I don't trust my own perception. It really is super confusing of an experience. I think "I can't help it" is what went across the line for me. It *feels* unregulated, on both sides, and that probably contributes to some of my fear about it. But it's not cruel, it's really like contagious giggles. I'm laughing too. It's not like it goes on and on. I do ask for it to stop as soon as it feels bad. Fast. And I keep asking, until it stops. I've never had to ask more than twice.

We've had a number of "state of the union" types of talks. Right at the get go, she set the pattern of regularly asking what's working, what's not, how is the relationship going, and it's generally doable to tell her these things, and she's pretty clear what works and doesn't work for her. This has been the first repeated issue that we haven't entirely been able to move past or resolve.

I honestly have no idea what "soft vulnerability" IS, so you've got me there. Both of those words sound dangerous and combined they sound like a really bad idea. Be curious about where this is going, I'd bet you're going to learn stuff. (Then, maybe, report back so the rest of us can too.)

Soft vulnerability does sound dangerous! A year ago, I would have said it is strange to say vulnerability builds connection, and sometimes safety. But now? It's actually something I want. I guess it's all about the "i" word: intimacy. In this case, emotional intimacy. I guess?

All I can say is that I tried shutting down my usual defences entirely in one go and that was messy. I literally couldn't talk.

This actually turns out to be why she isn't redirecting it more...

Whenever I’m thinking... f*ck it, I’m done with therapy, I quit (and similarly, there’s no one else I can see, locally)... My therapist goes on vacation :facepalm::hilarious:

LOL. This so happens for me too! She's always trying to prep me for the vacay, and typically, I'm like, "Yes! See ya!"

someone else gets to walk in and have a session that you had on your books--I'd be asking why isn't this other person be told, "sorry I overbooked this appointment and JustMeHere had it first" Why does she not make the other person take the brunt of her mistake? If she really did not communicate with you about the standing appointment changing.

Yeah, it was jarring, but demanding the other client leave didn't even seem like an option to me. It didn't come across as a negotiable matter. Plus, they were right there and they had intake paperwork. First session. It wouldn't have been a good business practice on my end to throw a fit that would make a third person uncomfortable. It was better to leave and come back. It was 1 mistake in many, many appointments... it's better than some therapists.

I went in to see her. I figured it was better to sort out things face to face. That was the right decision. She ended up offering to talk for 30 minutes and it was productive. She apologized, and I blubbered something about how I don’t know how to deal with all that I’m running from in my life, but that getting stuck on blame for scheduling snafus isn’t going to help. We found a halfway decent solution to scheduling. The conversation started off about contagious giggles and scheduling snafus.... and we turned it into a conversation about shame, sexual abuse, vulnerability and grief.

She explained she tries to redirect me back to the issues, but she doesn’t shut down the humor, because sometimes, that’s the only way I’ll connect with her right now. Otherwise, for the past two months, I've been pretty numbed out to the degree that's unusual for me. I totally have even spaced how this all came up in a different way just a few weeks ago. (This whole thread should have probably been in my trauma diary....ugh... thanks for bearing with me...)

She said most people get really angry and/or quit therapy when the humiliation of past trauma comes up, especially when it comes to sexual abuse and etc. This old humiliation is why I’m stressing out about contagious giggles in session, and about having more success in life. My recent successes are very small, but weirdly stressing me out more than usual. More success is more exposure. More exposure then fuels my sensitivity to being triggered to feeling humiliated. She has a plan, but I was too brain-dead-tired to fully process it. For now, I think we are headed in the right direction.

 

[NightSky]

I’m glad you went. I’ve been following along on this thread and relating to some of it. I have a major issue with humor. My T always tells me I could be a stand up comic. I see myself more as relentlessly sarcastic. Some people get it. Some don’t. Fortunately my T has a similar sense of humor, so we laugh a lot. But I laugh a lot when I don’t want to. She mirrors me. But has, at times, stopped and said “now I’m not laughing with you. Because that’s not funny.” And she’s teaching me, slowly, to exercise soft vulnerability. I’m used to hard, edgy, defensive, sarcastic, guarded when it comes to feeling vulnerable. I can be very sensitive and “soft” with others. I can’t with myself. But she knows I laugh so I won’t cry or feel exposed and she has pointed it out a lot. She’ll say “a minute ago when your eyes started to tear up and you were smiling still...” to let me know she recognizes it when I’m so good at fooling everyone else.
It took me a long time to WANT to be stop that defense mechanism. But even though it’s been probably over a year that I’ve wanted so much to stop laughing and start letting my exterior match my interior (in session), it’s really a slow process and I’m not even sure I’m getting better at it. We’re finding a balance. Sometimes if things get too serious, my T will make me laugh on purpose. So she’s helping me figure out where that line is and why.
Wanting to dial back the laughter and wanting to be vulnerable is a huge sign of growth. Well done. ;)

 

[Justmehere]

Wow! That's so great to read @NightSky! I can really relate to being able to be soft with others, but not myself. Well done for working on this stuff, and the progress. Gives me hope.

 

[Tinyflame]

She said most people get really angry and/or quit therapy when the humiliation of past trauma comes up, especially when it comes to sexual abuse and etc. This old humiliation is why I’m stressing out about contagious giggles in session, and about having more success in life. My recent successes are very small, but weirdly stressing me out more than usual. More success is more exposure. More exposure then fuels my sensitivity to being triggered to feeling humiliated.

Yes.

 

[Scarlet13]

Ive been following this and wanted to share my thoughts.
So, my first thought is that sometimes you really cannot help laughing.
Laughing is a very primitive response (like an ape call). There is a Ted Talk about this on the origins of laughter or something like that.
Close your eyes and just listen to laughter next time you hear it. It sounds wild, like an animal call.
Its very primal and is a lot like crying. Sometimes the body just responds.
It directly communicates information fast that says, "everything is ok." To laugh back is very automatic and deeply primal.

I have been around REALLY funny people like my husband who will make me laugh so hard I pee myself. It is almost tortuous and involuntary to a degree.

The funny person weilds a weapon so to speak. It is a form of power.
You are incontrol when you make her laugh.

So you get control and defense. You get a response from her, you are turning the tables on her.

I would say honestly, stop weilding the weapon of humour and funny story telling to gain power. I think you can control this.

Change the deffenses to self care strategies in the moment like grounding your self. Use humour as a buffer for yourself when you need it sometimes.

But, humour can be a manipulative weapon.

I really think both of you can control this as you have said, but when you are cracking jokes, you become the one in charge.

Perhaps research or document that feeling right before you joke. Is it the subject? Vulnerability? Is it her talking and taking charge?
What moment leads to the need for this?

I like what you wrote about "old humiliation" from sexual abuse/assault. I can relate. Perhaps that humiliation is why you are using humour to "turn the tables". You are in charge orchestrating a response from her that overrides and covers up that humiliation.
Just naming that old humiliation is huge.

I like this:

She explained she tries to redirect me back to the issues, but she doesn’t shut down the humor, because sometimes, that’s the only way I’ll connect with her right now.

Trauma work needs humour at times.
I think the funny and clever you should be there. It could easily be a great containment strategy if it can be calmed down a bit.

I think these conflicts, while gut wrenchingly stressful, lead to some of the best sessions.
As far as scheduling goes, she should have told you about scheduling changes. I am glad you could problem solve it.
She sounds like a good therapist.

 

[Justmehere]

I appreciate your insight and feedback @Scarlet13. I think that laughter in the context of trauma recovery is a very complex matter for me. You are right that I am in control of my own habits to crack jokes and tell stories. That's fair and very reasonable.

I have been around REALLY funny people like my husband who will make me laugh so hard I pee myself. It is almost tortuous and involuntary to a degree.

The funny person weilds a weapon so to speak. It is a form of power.
You are incontrol when you make her laugh.

For myself, I don't think it's a measure used for control or power over another. I might escape my own pain with it, but I am not in control of her giggles, any more than I control her tears if I told a sad story. Or in control of her worry if I was telling her of suicidal thoughts. No, I'm in control of myself, and that alone. If I start going down the route of being responsible for her feelings and reactions, I think I'd end up in a lot of bad places. It's therapy. It can't be on me to manage her feelings. I can't even handle my own. It's got to be on her to handle her own. She's not devoid of her own power to say stop. Plus, there are times I didn't find the matter funny. I'm nervously giggling or not at all. I don't know how I could possibly be controlling another's laughter in that moment.

I would say honestly, stop weilding the weapon of humour and funny story telling to gain power. .

I don't even know how it would be a weapon unless we are going down the bully route...

Laughing is a very primitive response (like an ape call). There is a Ted Talk about this on the origins of laughter or something like that.
Close your eyes and just listen to laughter next time you hear it. It sounds wild, like an animal call.
Its very primal and is a lot like crying. Sometimes the body just responds.
It directly communicates information fast that says, "everything is ok." To laugh back is very automatic and deeply primal.

Ever watch Charlie Chaplin? Lots of not-ok happening in that style of humour, and yet people laugh. Nervous laughter is another type of laughter that shows it's not a sign of all is ok. Sometimes it's a sign things are not ok.

Another example is when a sociopath laughs with delight at my pain (something I have experienced), or bullies that laugh at those they pick on, or when a health care professional heard about my trauma and didn't believe it and found me to be comically pathetic (actually happened.) These kinds of laughter may very well indeed be about power and control and certainly not about everything is ok. Which is part of why I object that that laughter is always a matter one person causing another to laugh for the sake of power. Laughter can be very dehumanizing to another - by the one laughing. Which is why it must be the responsibility of the one who laughs for their laughter. I write this as someone who was tickled when someone tried to sexually assault me. I was giggling and crying when I said no. Begged no. Short of a situation like that, of actual abuse, I'm responsible for my own laughter, my own actions, and that’s about it. I really need my therapist to manage herself.

 

[scout86]

For myself, I don't think it's a measure used for control or power over another.

Maybe a little? Without thinking of it that way? It can be a way to change the subject, or lighten the mood to avoid the darker stuff? Or spinning it, at least.

I've had a few discussions about "manipulation" with my T. I hate the word, hate the idea, and generally take it badly when the topic comes up, He keeps saying that the word, and the idea, are neutral. Math is just "manipulating" numbers, after all. And the human beings are always doing things to influence the direction of relationships or conversations, it doesn't have to be a bad, evil, power grab. You smile when you see someone you like, and, in a way, that "manipulates" them, but conveying the message that you like them. You glare at someone when you don't want them around, in an attempt to keep them away. All forms of "manipulation", but not evil at all.

You're you, and you may do things totally differently than I do. I know, for sure, that there are times when I'll present something as a "funny story" to avoid having to consider it as a "big deal". (Because who wants this stuff to be all that important, right?) And, there are times when things start to get serious in a way I'd rather avoid, so I make a joke, which changes the mood and maybe the subject.

Something that MIGHT be different is, nearly all the time. I'm pretty sure my T knows what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. He goes along with it because it's very much his philosophy to not MAKE me talk about anything. From what he's said, he's aware of, and concerned about, the possibility of retraumatizing people, so there's no pressure from his side at all. (Sometimes I wish there was. He actually knows that too and isn't going there anyway.)

Glad to hear you guys got things at least on the road to being sorted out!

 

[Justmehere]

This is a really interesting perspective - and it’s good to read because it’s so different from my own and my experience of laughter during trauma. The person laughing then was the one with power and control. I wasn’t causing them to laugh at all.

It’s true that all humans to some degree do seek to affect others. People avoid in many ways too. But changing a subject by changing tone or spin on a story is different than “torturous” control over another’s emotional reaction.

In therapy, I didn’t like the laughing because it felt so out of my control and reminded me of actual torture. By the one laughing. I see great value in recognizing my power and control over myself as part of this process.

Maybe a little? Without thinking of it that way? It can be a way to change the subject, or lighten the mood to avoid the darker stuff? Or spinning it, at least.

Of course. I tend to see sharing a sad story maybe a little like perhaps you describe @scout86 in the sense that it’s a way to affect an interaction.... people can do that in healthy or avoidant ways. People can avoid optimum or change or hope by spinning something in a sad direction. To me, that’s far different than wielding power and control as a weapon to cause another to have no control over themselves.... even if it effectively changes the conversation to a sad subject.

I’ve totally run into people to use unhealthy expressions of anger, sadness, etc, to try to gain power and control. The solution? For them to have control over themselves and the therapist over themselves. Not to handle it as one party has all the power for both and the other has none for themselves.

It reminds me of self injury. There is the handling of pain by injuring self and then asking for help to stop. Then there is self injury done as emotional blackmail. A sort of “look what I’ve done because of you” done with intent to harmfully affect another. I’ve been on the side of someone showing me severe injury they said I caused them to do. In the case of that situation, the solution isn’t for the self injurer to then be handled as if they have power and control and responsibility for another, and I am devoid of power over how I react. That would fuel the dysfunction. The path out of that was for the self injure to regain boundaries of responsibility for one’s self and for the others to regain boundaries of responsibility for themselves. I think the same would apply for unhealthy manipulative use of humour. If that makes any sense at all?

 

[Abstract]

Don't have the brainspace now but it sounds to me like you now have a lot of clarity. And that laughter itself is probably a good topic for therapy especially since it was used during torture to inflict further harm on you. I am so sorry. And I think a lot of us have experienced the cruelty of someone being entertained by our pain during trauma, abuse or other harmful interpersonal situations. To you laughter as a weapon has very specific and big relevance. Her laughing at times in response to you discussing trauma when you haven't been laughing is going to be particularly affecting as a result. Maybe this aspect of laughter is more nb than the use of it as deflection or coping. That type of tool. The non aggressive normal human functioning type. I do think many of the other aspects of laughter mentioned by others can be relevant and true too. If you were using laughter to regulate distance from emotional intimacy or overwhelm at times it would in no way make you in any tiny way like your perpetrators. Rather, just a normal human being. Different situations different behaviours and totally different contexts.

Very interesting to hear her perspective on therapy and what has been happening. Makes total sense.