Sexual Assault Unsure how to define this - 2 years of um coerced sex

[Freida]

I somehow managed to evade reoccurring most all of the situation and sexual activities... though not all. Non-consensual - gray area - WTF was that sex combined with an onslaught of solicitations by a group. In my case, I was active duty military. In instances when the group orchestrated non consensual situations, pressure for sex from others in or by word of mouth by others was sure to follow. If one to one solicitation didn't work, it would escalate to the group attempts to infiltrate parties, try to get me high or way way inebriated (chemically bypass the capacity to think and reason... most always alcohol cuz I wasn't a drug user), keep me there distracted as the "party" dissipated and then lock me in and physically prevent an attempt at leaving. The other difference I guess is that later on "the other girl" in the scenario was introduced after and we became friends. The "pressure" was for me to submit or they'd go for her. Sort of a hook to "protect" somebody else. K so here's a bit about this and that...

Yep. Every base was like that. T says "Just because it was the culture doesn't make it right"

When I got to my next base after my particular adventure my roommate told on day 1 "there are 1200 of them and 200 of us. Hook up fast or you are free game." So ya -- I had to find a guy to have sex with just so I wouldn't get gang raped. The reasoning behind it? The guys wouldn't go after a woman who had been "claimed" by someone.

Funny - never thought of that as trauma. But Chrissy I'm wondering if that is part of it.
Staying with the devils you know rather than finding devils you don't is just easier and can give you at least a sense of control.

Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of threats or force. It involves a set of various types of forceful actions that violate the free will of an individual to induce a desired response, for example: a bully demanding lunch money from a student or the student gets beaten. These actions may include extortion, blackmail, torture, threats to induce favors, or even sexual assault. In law, coercion is codified as a duress crime. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in a way contrary to their own interests. Coercion may involve the actual infliction of physical pain/injury or psychological harm in order to enhance the credibility of a threat. The threat of further harm may lead to the cooperation or obedience of the person being coerced."

Hope you don't mind but I am stealing this -- I need to put it in my diary so I can bookmark it. Because. Damn.

 

[Chris-duck]

Yep. Every base was like that. T says "Just because it was the culture doesn't make it right"

Yeah. I'd agree with your T, from how you and @The Albatross describe, it sounds like a pretty messed up culture.

The guys wouldn't go after a woman who had been "claimed" by someone.

Different obv, cos not military, and just different situation. But I think that's what a lot of the older women had done (obv some became absolute douches. But yeh). Lots of them left alone cos they were with a specific one of the main guys. And obv then H got with one of their mates (although a comparatively decent one). I didn't do that because stubborn basically.

Staying with the devils you know rather than finding devils you don't is just easier and can give you at least a sense of control

Yeah. It's why we didn't actually leave for Newcastle. And why Glasgow was where I ended up running to. But yeah. Definitely easier to navigate a shitstorm you've been in before than a new one. Just yeah, I have a habit of finding really impressive shitstorms :P

 

[Chris-duck]

because stubborn basically.

This bothers me. Like if I had picked one, or agreed to sleep with whoever, would this still be trauma? Like even if *their* actions didn't change. Like I knew how to make shit easier (just say yeah, it's happening anyway). But refused to because I dunno, stubborn. Like if I'd said yeah, what would this whole discussion look like.

 

[Freida]

This bothers me. Like if I had picked one, or agreed to sleep with whoever, would this still be trauma? Like even if *their* actions didn't change. Like I knew how to make shit easier (just say yeah, it's happening anyway). But refused to because I dunno, stubborn. Like if I'd said yeah, what would this whole discussion look like.

well. I did that. I picked one because the alternative was worse. So do I get to claim it as trauma? Or since I made a choice is it just guilt I have to live with? (answer carefully cause you know I'm gonna toss it right back at you! :laugh: )

 

[Chris-duck]

(answer carefully cause you know I'm gonna toss it right back at you! :laugh: )

:laugh: I'm gonna claim different.

Picking a nice guy wasn't an option (H did, shit still happens for her). I'd have to have picked a dickhead. Only ones that got left alone by other guys had to deal with DV etc in exchange. It's more, should I have just agreed to everyone? Like why bother saying no when it just complicates things and essentially makes no difference?

 

[Freida]

Like why bother saying no when it just complicates things and essentially makes no difference?

because it makes you feel like you tried to have some kind of control.

 

[Chris-duck]

because it makes you feel like you tried to have some kind of control.

Yeah, I know. Like I know why I said no, even though I knew it made no difference. Like I said no because I wanted to know I wasn't actually agreeing. And for some crazy reason I didn't wanna look back on it and think I agreed. I just amnt sure that was ever a very smart decision :laugh:

 

[Chris-duck]

It's like a weird distorted idea that if I'd just said yeah, I would never have been raped. I understand that saying yes because it makes no difference whether I do or not doesn't count as a yes. But I still wonder if it would bother me now if I'd said yeah then.

Even though I know probably it would, because saying yeah cos I gotta would just add extra confusion. I don't know. I'm easily confused

 

[Freida]

But I still wonder if it would bother me now if I'd said yeah then.

yep.
Sometimes I think the only thing that makes it ok is being able to tell yourself you never said yes --- which is why I struggle.
Beat the crap out of me because I say no? ya - that makes sense even if it's going to make it worse
Put me in a place where I have to say yes? Still destroying me all this time later.

At the same time I think H was on the right track ... FOR. HER. Her personality, her way of thinking, made saying yes something she could live with
You? I think you were on the right track FOR.YOU.

I think that's where you are confused. You and she were totally different people with different values, different life experiences, different ways of thinking. You may have been the same age and from similar backgrounds - but you weren't the same
That's why she wouldn't leave
That's why she said yes
That's why you left
That's why you said no
Both made your own decisions.... the best one for you.

 

[Chris-duck]

I think that's where you are confused. You and she were totally different people with different values, different life experiences, different ways of thinking. You may have been the same age and from similar backgrounds - but you weren't the same

Yeah I know this, it's just muddy cos of the impact each others decisions would have on the other person. Like if it wasn't all connected that'd be fair enough, but whatever we did affected the other person so it adds more of a "who is right n who is wrong" thing. Even though I know we made the right decisions for ourselves, we were kinda deciding for each other too. Ugh I dunno.

 

[Ronin]

It's like a weird distorted idea that if I'd just said yeah, I would never have been raped

You cant know that.
Guys coulda had a bad day. (... sarcastic, obviously not thinking it was about them having a bad day, just thinking of scumbags logic on anything/never them to blame.)

That choice was illusory to begin with, and that you had to choose anything is skewing the scales hard... Wrong of them, altogether, you could not have done better, because you were not doing wrong.

I'm easily confused

Looks you are remembering the possibilities, likelihoods, prior reactions, what was a no-go and how much of a no go... for several people.... for several years later... and even speculating with possibilities of entirely different actions than you had to, for recovery, now.

That doesnt sound to me as someone easily confused.
That sounds like someone who keeps their stories straight, extremely well.

 

[The Albatross]

Ugh... had to warm up in the batter's box to hang in on this topic. Here to tell ya though it's a good thing there was only a couple beers in the house and I decided not to leave the house yesterday so as to not have an opportunity to buy more booze. Not necessarily in any order:

Yeah. I think I struggle with this because I know I look at 19yos now and think they are lacking life experience (not as an insult, as a fact), but I also know that at 14 I looked at 19yos and thought the same :laugh:
Like I get the idea. And I get my views of younger me are probably skewed, but I wasn't a typical "left home for the first time" 19yo either.

I emancipated myself at 17 in San Diego and completed boot camp and arrived on station at a week or so before I turned 19... so yeah I didn't leave home for the first time and pretty much knew the ropes/drill in my hometown SD. From 14 I could go freely anywhere I wanted from Baja to Escondido as I pleased... not a suburban fresh faced innocent & streetwise by So Cal standards. SOOOooooo the "life experience" I had on the west coast was solid but when I went to New England? Eh... nope... different ball game, different dynamics, different perp/players PLUS I had the extra added bonus of being under a service commitment/tour of duty where I had to bunk/live with... eat and work with em and was only at liberty to zip out on off duty hours. Believe me I tried to stay on the move and out run the f'kers. It was a 2 year cat and mouse game and I was the mouse.

Yeah.. honestly it was a bit "how do I give this a detailed title without saying rape?" Like I'm not sure why that bothers me. I understand the definition, and I understand it applies, but I think my brain considers "rape" a bit melodramatic for describing my experiences, but apparently defining my experiences by defining rape without saying it is fine, or not fine, but better. I don't really know why.

Personally my initial situation was rape no doubt about it... the subsequent stuff was coerced under duress when there was no escape. When I could escape... OR "time out" because we all had to report for duty... it was still a duress crime and attempted (least) to varying degrees of sexual assault on multiple occasions.

This bothers me. Like if I had picked one, or agreed to sleep with whoever, would this still be trauma? Like even if *their* actions didn't change. Like I knew how to make shit easier (just say yeah, it's happening anyway). But refused to because I dunno, stubborn.

Understand and relate but when I drilled it down and picked it apart, yeah it was traumatic though in comparison to my other shit "not quite so bad". Mostly the sustained efforts on their part, the measures they took to "get me in control" and the duration of the situation made it that way more than the actual attempts or deeds though... cuz I chalked up a good amount of "successes" though I only measured them by whether anything other than touching occurred & whether I got back safe enough to get my ass to work. That was a piss poor measuring stick. Eh?

well. I did that. I picked one because the alternative was worse. So do I get to claim it as trauma? Or since I made a choice is it just guilt I have to live with

Not sure I understand why it's an "either/or". Pretty much I had to take the whole thing in toto (scope/magnitude/severity/duration/number of attempts/what it did to me as a result) to be at relative peace with it going forward. The solid foundation being it was not something I ever consented to outside the context of a duress crime or outright sexual assault or rape.

Picking a nice guy wasn't an option (H did, shit still happens for her). I'd have to have picked a dickhead. Only ones that got left alone by other guys had to deal with DV etc in exchange. It's more, should I have just agreed to everyone? Like why bother saying no when it just complicates things and essentially makes no difference?

Wouldn't have mattered for long with the dynamic of the group in my case. "Spoils" were shared, exchanged and sadistically used amongst the group in a coordinated manner.

because it makes you feel like you tried to have some kind of control.

Yup. Having no control over the situation/topic... or my location... to function I cooked up an eating disorder to give me the sense of control over "SOMETHING"... because something was better than nothing.

It's like a weird distorted idea that if I'd just said yeah, I would never have been raped. I understand that saying yes because it makes no difference whether I do or not doesn't count as a yes. But I still wonder if it would bother me now if I'd said yeah then.

You have no evidence that this would be the case without having also made the decision to participate like the older women/gals in the group... AND you had no interest in doing that... so moot point.