Childhood Why do people think this is csa

[Rose White]

I don’t think of my dad as developmentally disabled or like a child anymore. Now I see him as a man.

My sexual fantasies often involved me watching people. The small eyes from a distance. And also I used to imagine myself as a little boy that was my dad being abused by an adult man masturbating. While I feel ashamed perhaps there is a kind of strange wisdom in how the unconscious tries to communicate with the self.

I am taking a sex break, I want nothing to do with it again, just need a break from it mentally, in all forms, don’t want to engage in those thoughts or feelings. Couldn’t if I wanted to. This should really all be in my diary.

I keep oscillating between societal responsibilities and personal responsibilities for pedophilia. When I think about societal ills I want to leave the world. There doesn’t feel like any hope in society. That’s why Christians say, “not of this world.” My dad converted from atheism to Catholicism (my mom’s religion) around age 60. It makes sense, I think, he needed redemption.

I can’t do Christian. But I can’t do atheism either. Sorry I’m rambling. I feel really mentally stressed out but also like it’s hard to move my body. I will try now.

 

[spinningmytires]

Why a mentally heathy adult male would prefer sexual intimacy with a child rather than another adult is beyond my understanding. However, my father's CSA of me was different in that, he had no interest in experiencing physical touch nor emotional closeness with me nor with anyone. I’d suspect, most men would feel painfully lonely in his situation yet, he seemed comfortable with it.

My father would often appear noticeably stressed when pressured to interact with me. He would often quickly look away, stuttering a few words, avoiding eye contact with rapid eye-blinking and a wrinkled nose, as if smelling a foul odor. I learned to keep my distance from him and my conversations as short as possible. When drinking, he'd be more relaxed, though still very conservatively withdrawn with everyone.

He obviously didn’t want me to join in on his CSA activities. He preferred that I freeze and remain totally motionless, as if, emotionally dead or totally unaware while sleeping.

Not until my mid 20’s, had I become consciously-aware of my father’s CSA. Yet my dissociation episodes continued, even though, my T told me I’d resolved my CSA issues at age 24.

Perhaps my father’s ‘no contact’ sexual abuse had coincided with his 'assumed' sexual fantasy of maintaining total control over his frozen, dissociating unaware or sleeping sex object (me). ( I find it difficult to understand what thoughts were going through his mind during my CSA). If I had been an active and aware sexual partner during his CSA, he might lack his total control. Perhaps he was imagined himself as having an extreme power to initiate my abuse and to end my abuse as he chose to do. I'm just trying to understand why he would prefer this 'no contact' abuse.

From my mother’s perspective, as long as my ‘no contact’ CSA remains hidden and denied (even from me), it was okay. If my father had been fondled his genitals while standing in front of his wife, I suspect, she would have felt offended yet, not frozen in extreme fear. Perhaps, my mother believed that if she could easily ignore his genital fondling that, I should have been able to easily ignore it as well.

I don’t know much about my father’s childhood. He rarely spoke about it. Though his family lived nearby, we were estranged. My mother once told me, that my father’s mother was mentally ill and would sometimes jump up and down while enraged. My father’s mother was also placed in foster care as a child, while her sibling remained with their biological parents — if this might suggest she had behavioral problems early in life. My brother’s biological son, who was diagnosed with bipolar, is also estranged.

Though I hardly knew my father’s family, they seemed like strict, religious Christians, much more so than my mother’s toxic, amoral, ‘do as you please’ family, who disrespect boundaries.

I once mentioned my brother’s violent assault on his mother (I witnessed it) — and both my brother along with our older half-sister immediately and harshly accused me of trying to stir-up trouble. Never any admission of wrong-doing. Never any apologies.

My brother has always been in need of professional help for his anger issues. At the very core of his being, I think he is suffering. Perfecting his grandiose public image doesn’t fix anything.

 

[Rose White]

fantasy of maintaining total control over his frozen, dissociating unaware or sleeping sex object (me) . . . If I had been an active and aware sexual partner during his CSA, he might lack his total control.

This resonates with me but I can’t yet articulate how.

 

[beaneeboo]

I read most of this thread last night in the early hours and had so much I wanted to say... but between feeling overwhelmed with my own stuff, not having my glasses and being on my phone (squinting!!), I thought I'd leave it til day time to say anything...

I dont have anything useful to add compared to some of the answers already given here... but I found it interesting witnessing your blind spot (which you yourself highlight having) in not being able to see how your father's sexual abuse was in fact abuse... and (as I and others here experience the same thing in relation to our own histories), i just find your enquiry and questioning about your own situation a) so interesting, b) so helpful (so thank you) and c) very thought-provoking....it's made me reflect on my stuff too...

so the thing about being so young, not being physically touched during abuse (when you were 4) and not necessarily understanding what was going on (so therefore 'why would it be considered abuse') is a logical thought process... but it's a logical thought process for a child who doesn't know any better..... you know as an adult that you wouldn't do what your father did to another child of the same age you were... and that's likely an intuitive understanding / feeling you have? you just know you wouldn't..... perhaps breaking that down (keeping you and your experience out of the picture for now), could be a useful exercise for you? literally sit with pen / paper / laptop and write down all the reasons why you wouldn't be able to put yourself in the same position with your dad and a child the same age you were and do what he did... why wouldn't you? why couldn't you? ...

dads are supposed to set the bar, pave the way, give the healthy boundaried blue print... if he, and no-one else around you, gave you that implicit understanding of safe / unsafe / right / wrong, it's no wonder that understanding (from that more adult perspective) just isn't there for you (or many of us here)... how can we get our heads around something EXPERIENTIALLY that we didn't experience? That's different to getting your head round it cognitively... if you see what I mean...

I know with my own denial that it's way more than just being able to understand... I can understand things which were wrong, things I wouldn't do to another child, yet when I put myself back in my memories, my whole world view / perspective on the matter swings right back to where it was... and there I am again saying 'but I can't see how it was abuse'.....your body, YOU, EXPERIENCED what happened to you way before logic and understanding existed for you...your logical brain hadn't developed.... different parts of your brain were involved in your experience of being YOU in the environment you were brought up, surrounded by unsafe people, who you couldn't have known or understood were unsafe... so although he didn't touch you and you couldn't have understood what was going on, why it was bad, you were living a life where your primary care giver could abuse you in a way which seemed normal, like nothing... but he was far from being healthy / normal and his lack of ability to keep you safe, to SHOW you and help you understand the difference between what's wrong and what's right is a big part of that abuse... the very fact you (I and lots of others here) can't tell what is ok and what's not, IS THE ABUSE in itself... those people who just know certain behaviours aren't ok, have been given the care they and we all deserve...

i'm not sure if that's a rambling mess or not!

 

[beaneeboo]

just

the very fact you (I and lots of others here) can't tell what is ok and what's not, IS THE ABUSE in itself... those people who just know certain behaviours aren't ok, have been given the care they and we all deserve...

just read this back and thought I really need to clarify that I didn't mean you don't know generally that certain abusive behaviours are abusive... in saying you can't tell what's ok and what's not, I meant in relation to your own abuse story... there's a blindspot there in each and everyone of our own experiences...

just didn't want to sound like i thought you or anyone else here struggles with understanding what abusive behaviour looks like generally speaking...

 

[Torch]

just read this back and thought I really need to clarify that I didn't mean you don't know generally that certain abusive behaviours are abusive... in saying you can't tell what's ok and what's not, I meant in relation to your own abuse story... there's a blindspot there in each and everyone of our own experiences...

just didn't want to sound like i thought you or anyone else here struggles with understanding what abusive behaviour looks like generally speaking...

Wouldn't this blindspot imply that the person with the blindspot might replicate the abuse having little to zero awareness that their actions were abusive?

You reasoning here leads me to that idea:

so the thing about being so young, not being physically touched during abuse (when you were 4) and not necessarily understanding what was going on (so therefore 'why would it be considered abuse') is a logical thought process... but it's a logical thought process for a child who doesn't know any better...

dads are supposed to set the bar, pave the way, give the healthy boundaried blue print... if he, and no-one else around you, gave you that implicit understanding of safe / unsafe / right / wrong, it's no wonder that understanding (from that more adult perspective) just isn't there for you (or many of us here)... how can we get our heads around something EXPERIENTIALLY that we didn't experience?

there I am again saying 'but I can't see how it was abuse'.....your body, YOU, EXPERIENCED what happened to you way before logic and understanding existed for you...your logical brain hadn't developed.... different parts of your brain were involved in your experience of being YOU in the environment you were brought up, surrounded by unsafe people, who you couldn't have known or understood were unsafe...

Especially when so young, there's a good chance abuse survivors won't register the abuse as abuse, and go on to unconsciously (unintentionally, unknowingly) recreate the abuse in their relationships with other people.

You have revealed the most unpleasant part of the healing journey.
It's facing the abuse again as someone who now knows better.
Living through the abuses again in order to reject and defeat them, now as a person who received the support and care needed to recognize the behavior as abusive in the first place. Instead of as a child without logic or fully developed brain.
I'm not looking forward to it. Some aspects of my FFO were pretty messed up and I know I hurt people without meaning to. That part of therapy is going to hurt.

 

[beaneeboo]

Wouldn't this blindspot imply that the person with the blindspot might replicate the abuse having little to zero awareness that their actions were abusive?

You reasoning here leads me to that idea:

Especially when so young, there's a good chance abuse survivors won't register the abuse as abuse, and go on to unconsciously (unintentionally, unknowingly) recreate the abuse in their relationships with other people.

You have revealed the most unpleasant part of the healing journey.
It's facing the abuse again as someone who now knows better.
Living through the abuses again in order to reject and defeat them, now as a person who received the support and care needed to recognize the behavior as abusive in the first place. Instead of as a child without logic or fully developed brain.
I'm not looking forward to it. Some aspects of my FFO were pretty messed up and I know I hurt people without meaning to. That part of therapy is going to hurt.

I mean I think you're opening up a whole different (but obviously valid) convo here that will be relevant to some people but not all...

I don't think it necessarily follows that if you've been abused as a child and (likely) didn't recognise it that you'll go on to abuse others... could be the case for some but I would disagree with the notion that it's a given everyone will do... I think that's a myth...

So i don't want to hijack @Rose White's post here as its a different focus... but i wish you well on your healing journey and applaud your bravery... as i do everyone here moving through their journey

 

[Rose White]

Thank you @beaneeboo for your thoughtful comments.

he was far from being healthy / normal and his lack of ability to keep you safe, to SHOW you and help you understand the difference between what's wrong and what's right is a big part of that abuse.

This is pretty much where I’m at with it now. In my last session the therapist asked a very provocative question to see my take on it. And I decisively said that there was nothing “loving” about this act with a child and he was supposed to set that boundary not cross it. And I wondered if it’s possible for me to re-install that law in me when my whole emotional life was built on that unfortunate foundation. And, like you said, not knowing that he was unsafe is a whole thing.

And this here is definitely a factor in how I process the whole thing

there's a good chance abuse survivors won't register the abuse as abuse, and go on to unconsciously (unintentionally, unknowingly) recreate the abuse in their relationships with other people.

My dad didn’t know that his dad had sexually abused his sister for her entire childhood when he did what he did to me. He had a dad who espoused that humans were apes that were neurotic because they didn’t enjoy life and had too many rules. And his dad shared with him that sex was amazing and that children were sexual beings too (just like Freud and all his psychoanalytical students taught.). It wasn’t until after grandpa died and I was a teenager when my dad learned that his dad had sexually abused his sister for her entire childhood and that she was sent away at age 12 “for her own protection.” And when she was sent away Grandpa continued to parent the boys—my dad and uncle—because I guess he wasn’t abusing them? (Except he *was* because of exactly what beanieboo said above about not teaching right from wrong. And uncle said that grandpa did do stuff to him but my dad never said grandpa did anything to him—possibly because then he would have had to confront what he did to me.)

I don't think it necessarily follows that if you've been abused as a child and (likely) didn't recognise it that you'll go on to abuse others...

That said, many here have tried to help me understand that in spite of ALL that, my dad still “made a choice.” And that is in quotes because free will is debatable but necessary for the law to exist. And sideways (I think) once said something helpful, along the lines of “not teaching right from wrong IS the abuse”, which was—it wasn’t that one thing, it was ALL of it—it was ALL of what he did and *how he was*—I don’t have to narrow it down to that one event and everything hinges on that. It was much more ongoing and pervasive and nuanced—and I don’t have to accept it.

But? I suspect that what Torch wrote above, about “won’t register the abuse as abuse” plays a significant part in the unfortunate incident that I remembered and brought to my mom’s attention at age 39. And it’s very possible that that hinge point could play a part in whatever form forgiveness might take in my life.

 

[spinningmytires]

beaneeboo said: so the thing about being so young, not being physically touched during abuse (when you were 4) and not necessarily understanding what was going on (so therefore 'why would it be considered abuse') is a logical thought process... but it's a logical thought process for a child who doesn't know any better..... you know as an adult that you wouldn't do what your father did to another child of the same age you were... and that's likely an intuitive understanding / feeling you have?


Yes. So why would I want to recreate the emotionally painful and frightening CSA situation that I once endured as a child. I gained no pleasure from my CSA as a child - I'd likely gain no pleasure from it as an adult. I've never switched from my 'child like' role. I'm stuck in this passive chronic child like freeze, dissociatiion and numbing out. I can't imagine myself taking my father's abusive role. He was very mentally ill and unable to fuction normally. My mother, on the other hand, was well aware of my CSA at age 4 and yet she never offered to help me.

During all of my adult to adult sexual relationships, I have always consistently maintained a very passive inactive child like role similar to the passive role I always played during my father's CSA. However, my adult intimate relationships differed, in that, my male partner would express a desire to physically touch me while my father did not. This change seemed to confuse me too much.

I had tried to take a more acive role in my 'love making' with a guy yet, I'd always eventually go numb. After explaining my sexual numbness to my first T, he only told me to 'go through the 'physical' motions' and eventually the feelings will come. Nope, didn't happen -- not after 9 months of trying. My T then placed me on anti-depressants thinking that might help. Again, nope. I was then age 28 and had giveen up on dating.

 

[Rose White]

@spinningmytires I can relate a lot to the sexual dysfunction. That aspect of the csa fallout is so frustrating and alienating.

 

[spinningmytires]

@Rose White Said: I can relate a lot to the sexual dysfunction. That aspect of the csa fallout is so frustrating and alienating.

Very alienating, yes! My sexually abusive father was definitely dysfunctional in many ways, beyond just his sexual behavior. He never sought therapy as he apparently never recognized himself with a problem.

He once said, he was never depressed nor bore a day in his life. He did, however, drink heavily when his wife left him for another man. Apparently he felt that contributing his paycheck, running errands and doing household chores for his demanding wife was enough.

Yet, it was this need for emotional closeness that he couldn’t understand. He actually preferred being alone with his beer, newspaper, TV, girly magazines and CSA.

He had no real friends, no outside interests, no hobbies nor curiosity about the world. He attended social events with his wife yet rarely spoke. Trying to engage him in a causal conversation only stressed him out - he’d begin to stutter. He rarely asked his kids about their own activities, feelings or interests. Though he’d often be present, it was often as if he wasn’t there.

 

[spinningmytires]

so the thing about being so young, not being physically touched during abuse (when you were 4) and not necessarily understanding what was going on (so therefore 'why would it be considered abuse') is a logical thought process... but it's a logical thought process for a child who doesn't know any better.....

As a small child, when alone with my father, I never questioned the ‘right or wrong’ of my father’s ‘no contact’ sexual abuse (fondling) nor his other behaviors. I never told my mother that my father’s behavior was wrong — I simply accepted it.

However, I can vividly recall my mother once telling me not to touch my own genitals because they were too dirty. Perhaps, due to my limited child-like thinking, I then thought this meant that my father’s genitals must be clean enough to be touched while, my genitals were too dirty to be touched.

Perhaps, every time my father fondled his clean touchable genitals in front of me, he was silently reminding me that my genitals were too dirty to touch and that I should feel ashamed to have dirty genitals. Not even did my father want to touch my dirty genitals - if this might partially explain the origin of my emotionaly harmful ’no contact’ CSA shame.