Attachment Issues

[maddog]

Pencil, you did make me laugh, a lot, and I'm nowhere near as good at putting words together when I'm overtired. But there was something hilarious at the image of me as an upside down baby mammal flailing around for life... kind of says it all really.

I agree, he probably does care. Lots of people who are passionate about their jobs really do care. Hell, I used to be one of them. But that care isn't specific or unique to me, it's just a form of passion with a personal twist, if that makes sense. It's hard for me to find the rational realistic middle ground about this without somehow hurting myself with my misconceptions, so I'm actually wondering if I need to stop trying.

And yes, all the analogy stuff about onions and teflon-coated thingies does make sense... it just doesn't feel real at this point. I don't sense the existence of anything under the teflon except for... I don't know what. I don't think it's more teflon, because I know that there's something else there, I just don't know that it's anything that anyone would want to touch for more than a cautious exploratory moment.

I do want to say more, but am tired, and triggered by something unrelated, and... too damn miserable.

MD

 

[Pencil]

What I write doesn't have to make sense to you or convince you and you don't have to respond.

Go be upside down and try to just be.

Oh, and mammals go upside down to enter the birth canal. Like ready, steady, go!

 

[anthony]

I so often read statements that make boundaries seem like something sacrosanct that are crucial to protect the therapist against clients who would pillage consulting rooms without the magical powers of the boundary.

I read somewhere that the obsession with boundaries is in fact a RECENT development, which probably has more to do with the very litigious climate in the USA at the moment, rather than with actual therapeutic benefits or concerns per se.

Boundaries are more recognised due not to litigation, nor the therapist solely, but both parties. There are therapists out there that use their position of authority, within a highly manipulative environment of mental health, to prey on their clients. There are clients who also believe their therapist is in love with them, because of their compassion, empathy and such, within that very false manipulative environment. The therapeutic alliance laws are about protection of both parties, not one or the other. A highly depressed or confused client may begin to stalk their therapist, their family even, because the person they went to who listens to them, empathises and helps them, become delusional that there is love or such present. It happens, from dating, sex to stalking and killing. Both parties.

 

[Pencil]

What I write ... Go be upside down and try to just be

Re-reading this I wonder if it comes across as caring, or abrupt :eek:

On the Myers-Briggs I am INFP: ' ... can seem shy, even distant around others. But inside they're anything but serene, having a capacity for personal caring rarely found in the other types'. I often come across as about as caring as a troll with a club.

So, Maddog, take the statement I made, and sing it to the tune of your favourite lullaby., and you'll get an idea of the tone I wanted to communicate :)

 

[Pencil]

It happens, from dating, sex to stalking and killing.

And that is my main point - boundaries are ubiquitous, and should be acknowledged as such, and not be seen as a special ingredient in the therapeutic relationship. I have a problem when a therapist wrestles a hysterical (justifiably so) client out the door at the end of 50 minutes whether anything of any importance happens immediately after or not, but simply because it is considered a boundary.

Believe it or not - I had a therapist who called me one Saturday morning, said she had just jogged past my house, wondered how I was, and then rang off in a huff when I told her I had a friend with me. (She committed suicide in 2007.) I agree, boundaries are incredibly important, but are not limited to therapy, and are not the sole preserve of the therapist.

When I go on about boundaries, it is for two reasons:

1. Every relationship MUST have clear boundaries. My daughter and I have clear boundaries: She doesn't mess with my make-up, I don't mess with her toys. This is over-simplified, of course. The point is - the boundaries are not only mine.
2. Boundaries are not hard and fast rules to be applied to all people at all times under all circumstances in equal measure, etc.

I know I'm not making myself clear. What I'm trying to get at is NOT that boundaries are NOT important, but that they are universal, and that people should be more conscious of this, and not see this as a holy thing that exists around a therapist like a halo. I'll refine this.

 

[Pencil]

because the person they went to who listens to them, empathises and helps them, become delusional that there is love or such present.

But you are right, therapists are more 'vulnerable' or 'endangered' in that sense.

 

[anthony]

I have a problem when a therapist wrestles a hysterical (justifiably so) client out the door at the end of 50 minutes whether anything of any importance happens immediately after or not, but simply because it is considered a boundary.

That isn't a therapeutic boundary IMHO... that is an administrative aspect of time management for their business / other clients they have to see. Doctors often become further behind in their days scheduled appointments because prior clients go over-time. Psychiatrists often go over as well... therapists do it more IMHO due to time management, not a therapeutic boundary. It is ignorance to the client to rush them out the door for time management, not a therapeutic boundary.

That is more a doctrine within psychology, where it is the opposite in medicine, as doctors have a higher oath to their clients well-being to put ahead of an extra 5-10 minutes of their time if a patient requires it.

 

[Abstract]

not see this as a holy thing that exists around a therapist like a halo.

Do they though Pencil? I don't I have to say. To me the reason why they are so important in therapy is for my welfare. And why? Because every little thing in therapy has enormous power and influence because it is different to a normal relationship. They are privy to our deepest fears and vulnerabilities. More than in any other dynamic other than parent and child.

I personally do think time can be seen as a boundary in certain respects in therapy. Other than it also being a practical concern. There are times when a therapist would need to make sure the client is Ok regardless of the consequences. But remember the person after is important too. The next client. A delay could have serious consequences for them. If therapists randomly stopped whenever then there would be chaos and that chaos could severely impact clients wellbeing. We need to be able to rely on structure and reliability from our therapist too. We are not the only clients. Noone is. That sense of solidness should generally be something that the client can lean on.

I think the main reason for boundaries was because of increased knowledge about transference and counter transference and from what was being learned about the impact on peoples mental health when it goes wrong. I watched a documentary on Marilyn Monroe recently and it seems to me that she was a victim. And that was before transference was understood.

I think clients not wanting boundaries in therapy or anywhere is the same concept as the child standing in the sweet shop screaming to have what it wants. I don't mean that in a shaming way. Is it always good for the child? No. Would a good parent be able to judge when to give in and when not to? Yes. Is it a place to learn appropriate boundaries in the rest of life? Yes.

If you look at your own childhood could there be any reason why this topic hits such a sore spot for you? You mentioned your childhood was rigid. Could that have any relevance at all? Just a random thought so hope it's Ok asking. How are you with rules in general in life? Do you find you have the urge to push against them when you can? What do rules symbolise to you if you let yourself think laterally?

 

[Pencil]

Just a random thought.

Yeah, you and your spot-on random thoughts! :)

Could be. I'm beginning to realise that it is quite a SPOT for me. At first I thought I was simply logical about it, but it seems as if I'm kicking up a fuss about it.

My first therapist, A, the one with the REAL halo :D : I saw her when I went to my hometown for my sister's funeral. We were talking about boundaries in terms of child rearing, and she gave me one of her wisdom via a story/joke/legend type lessons. In this case it goes like this: A progressive school (I imagine it is real) made the decision to remove all restrictions, including the fence, and it was communicated to the kids that they were trusted, not treated as hooligans, etc. The result, however, was that the kids stayed close to the buildings, whereas before they would play/move/explore in the whole area, right up to the fence. So, interestingly and ironically, the lack of boundaries turned out to be MORE LIMITING and RESTRICTIVE, as it made them insecure. Fascinating.

Okay: yes, I see I have an issue with boundaries:

I'm extremely careful around boundaries and never want to bump into one. Right, I acknowledge that I fear bumping into a boundary, This is a hangover from my childhood - as I fear being beaten almost to death for inadvertently stubbing my toe on a boundary. Perhaps because of this I see a boundary, now that I'm an adult and very mindful of boundaries (except 'topic' boundaries of course :D ) almost as an insult. How stupid is that?

2. I HATE setting boundaries. I expect others to simply know where mine are. It drives me insane when my daughter tests my boundaries. Violate my boundaries and be prepared to die!! But I won't tell you where they are :roflmao: OMG I'm a nutcase.

Abstract, I FULLY agree with what you say. So what is my problem? Why do I keep arguing about this?

I don't know.

 

[Abstract]

Gosh Pencil. It sounds like "boundaries" were frightening for you. I wonder if the idea of them is almost a trigger for you in a sense. I don't think what your father was doing was setting boundaries. I think that is just plain abuse.

Boundaries are good things not something that is used to punish and control. They are there to protect each persons integrity and yes, NOONE automatically knows what another person is thinking. Especially when we are talking about emotional boundaries that are linked to sore spots.

I wonder if it would help you to do some work on separating the abuse from the past from good, normal boundaries?

Oh and I don't think it is stupid at all! :(

 

[Pencil]

I wonder.

I'm thinking here. I have no idea what will appear here.

The household was run like a military camp, on a physical, logistics level. But on other levels boundaries shifted, kaleidoscopically. Mmmm. We (the kids) were not allowed boundaries. Go figure.

I'll go and think about this.

In fact, I think the issue is contained in your question: In my mind there is no distinction between boundaries and abuse.

:sick:

 

[Abstract]

In my mind there is no distinction between boundaries and abuse.

Oh dear. :( I am sorry.

And actually I relate to what you describe to an extent. I actually don't think those are boundaries. They are control and a type of emotional abuse (I can see that for you). And yes things almost always shift then. And children not being allowed boundaries is classic.

Horrible.