Why Do Parents Hate Their Kids?

[Eleanor]

This is such an awesome thread. What an amazing group of people.

I don't know if this will be a contribution or not, but just in case: a philosophical digression....

which is silly of course because you cannot wish it away, and life is beautiful and a gift, but putting up with all their crap makes it hard to see that it's worth it at times.

I have been thinking about this impulse to make conditional moral judgements about the past thing recently, that is to try to say "I should have..." This is different than saying "What X did was wrong." "X did the right thing." I think those kinds of judgments are legit and o.k. but they are also pretty limited. Most actions in the past are NOT clearly right or wrong, better or worse, most just are what they are, and it is only in rare instances that we can pull some action(s) out and say with any confidence "that was right, and this was wrong." Was it wrong that I let my daughter go to school late? Was it wrong that I had broccoli for dinner last night? Was it wrong that I bought a new car? Was it wrong that I didn't send a letter? Who the hell knows? So except for those rare instances of particular actions in particular situations that we can confidently say were right or wrong - most of it is murky as the Mississippi river after a heavy rain. There is just no way to know.

So what about these "should have's?"

I have come to the conclusion that it is not only totally useless, but actually conceptually incoherent to try to do this. The simple reason is this - to say that we should do something is to say something pre-scriptive - that is it is essentially to make a judgement BEFORE the action in question. Saying "I should do X" AFTER I have done it or failed to do it doesn't actually make any sense. If I say, "I should do X," it needs to be true that, "I am able to do X." If I am NOT able to do X, I might wish or want to do it, but it wouldn't be right to say,"I should do it." That would be what one of my professors used to call "an abuse of language."

In general when talking about human beings and social relations, "should have" is not a very useful or meaningful formulation. The ONLY exception to this rule I've found is this: in a situation where there is a clear outcome to be achieved, and a limited practical set of ways to achieve it, and a practical error that was made. So, "I should have set the parking brake before jacking up the car to change the tire" makes sense in a way that "I should have stood up to my abuser," or "I shouldn't have been born" just CAN'T. So when the "should have" indicates a practical mistake, it makes sense. When "should have" indicates a moral mistake, it doesn't make any sense. I admit this is confusing (and I am trained to be an expert in this kind of thing, and it is hard for me to sort it out, so sorry if this is all really really obscure.) It is more confusing because "should not have" IS a moral judgment we can make retroactively - but only about actions that were clearly morally reprehensible, not about actions taken with good intentions that did not work. Who knows what "would have" happened? And if you don't know what would have happened (as you do in the practical cases) then you don't have grounds to second guess.

Own up to my shit with them and hopefully help to set them on a course for healing.

I'm pretty sure this is the best any of us can do in any circumstances. We can always do the first part. We don't always get the opportunity for the second, but we can cultivate the intention...

 

[Don't trip]

Mom,

I hear what you're saying.

But there is a difference.

While growing up, I had not ONE healthy nor stable example of what it was like to be a healthy human being. Many survivors that I mentor are incredible parents. Not all the survivors I mentor come to my blog because they were in abusive romantic relationships, but some because they STILL interact with an abusive psychopathic/narcissistic parent that is wreaking havoc in their lives. Despite that, while being good parents (whatever that means now), their children are still exposed to abuse, through the grandparents interaction with the child's parent. Children are remarkably insightful and observant. There are a couple of things I've seen consistently when working with abuse survivors who have children: 1. If they are not themselves abusive, they do harm to their children, even with the best of intentions, as a result of the fallout of their own childhood abuse issues in over protecting them, creating enabling and emotional dependence and enmeshment with their children and 2. the child is exposed to abuse through the interactions of the survivor with the abusive grandparent or other abusers in their lives whom are close to the survivor.

You speak of choices. I agree with you, however one must have the information and awareness to make those choices. Some of us did not. It's not so simple to say, "I choose an abusive partner that I know will abuse my children or that I know I will become so involved in that I will neglect and/or abuse my children". In other words, isn't conscious, it is subconscious.

It's very easy for me to say, "Well, if I knew now what I knew then I would not have had children". And that is true, but what is also true is that I didn't know. I was making choices that were familiar to me. One of the things I'm dealing with now is a great sense of anger at not being shown, taught or given the opportunity to have my childhood built on a foundation of healthy love and care. There wasn't any. At all. Oftentimes, even a mentor who is involved in a child's life, no matter what form, can make a MONUMENTAL difference in a child's life into adulthood when they come from nothing but abuse. I didn't have even that as those in authority outside of my abusive home, either sexually abused me or verbally emotionally abused. There was NO safety.

Mom, I'd like to share something with you, as you seem very aware.

When I was raising my six, I told everyone who would listen that I was NOT like my parents. To a degree, this was true, I wasn't disordered, however, none of us (unless disordered) are just like our parents, BUT there is always fallout from abuse.

I remember saying very similar things to myself as you have shared here. Protecting my children, almost over protective. I thought this was a good thing, preventing abuse, being highly cautious, etc.

But what that turned into, is enabling and enmeshment. I was overly emotionally involved with them because I feared them being hurt. In reality, I was smothering and I developed an emotional dependence upon them. This has a horrible affect on my children and on myself and our relationships but I didn't see this until they were ADULTS. What they learned from my coddling and over protection was disrespect of me. I didn't have strong boundaries with them, not realizing I was coming from a place of 'friendship', rather than just parenting. The lines are easily blurred because we love them so much and fiercely want to protect them from pain. Often our good intentions turn out to be something we live to regret.

I have had to learn some hard lessons on letting them go EMOTIONALLY.

This too, was something I wish I was aware of at the time. I wasn't.

Childhood abuse always, always, ALWAYS has fallout, in no matter what form it comes.

It's good that you're aware of it. But it's important too, to see all sides of how our parenting approaches impact our children, even when we think we have the best of intentions, being survivors of abuse and I have NO DOUBT your intentions are admirable and honorable. :)

 

[Pencil]

Childhood abuse always, always, ALWAYS has fallout, in no matter what form it comes.

Don't trip

I have real problems in this area. My daughter is 7, and she is now beginning to show signs that I've not been the perfect mother. The hiccups are minor (but could become serious if I don't pay attention) and are related to my inability to be consistent and to establish firm boundaries.

I don't need anyone to tell me how important these two things are - I am fully aware of it. What I don't know is

1) how to be consistent when I 'switch' between states, where the one literally forgets the rules of the adult (besides, what I've only recently fully realized is that there are traumatised children in the mix, who do NOT want to play)
2) how to get over my horror of solid, non-negotiable boundaries.

Mom of two, I love the way you describe the FUN you have with your kids.

 

[Pencil]

I actually think there should be a 'Mothering skills' thread, although I get the impression that the mothers are in the minority here. Or am I mistaken?

Raven, I've now completely derailed your thread :eek:

 

[MomOfTwo]

I believe that what I suffered should not have happened but it has made me a better parent. It has made me observe my own behaviour. That being said I struggled with having or not having children for years and did not have them until much later in life. I babysat a lot through my teens and was always considered a favourite babysitter by the kids I looked after. One of the girls I took care of has her own children and said I was the best babysitter and her mom only trusted me. I was very responsible but I was a parentified child.

I had to look after my younger brother growing up. My mom was not present most of my life. She worked afternoons to avoid parenting or avoid my dad. Not sure why other than I never felt like she wanted to be a mom. I was told by my dad that she never loved me or my siblings and that she was never coming home over and over. She was never home. I was abused in every way possible. I did love my siblings. I did care about them. Even my sister who hurt me I cared. I had an extremely abusive father who controlled everything. Food, shelter, everything. I have been forced to sleep outside with my mom. I did not repeat the cycle. I know cycles can get repeated and hear it all the time but I really did not want that to happen. I have educated myself and believe re-parented myself in ways. I am glad that I did not repeat the same pattern but understand the psychology behind why it happens. It just does not always happen. I hurt too many years because of it. I bet that there are other wonderful parents on this forum as well. They may not feel it because of their inner critic(s).

I do not expose them to known pedophiles and know my husband would literally beat someone into oblivion if they hurt one of our children. I am not trusting of many people because of my experience. I have yelled which is not healthy but the best parents yell. I accept responsibility for that. We all have to be responsible at some point and some people have to hit rock bottom so to speak to get there. My nephew was being abused by his mom. My family phoned family and children services. It was hard but abuse is just wrong. I would phone if I knew a child was being abused by a parent even if within my own family. My brother was not the abuser but his ex. It was a long court battle and in the end she got anger management treatment and had my nephew back.

While my nephew was in foster care his mom would only allow my husband and I access to him. I would get his as much as I could. I was always part of his life. I took him all the time prior. He used to tell my husband and I that he wished we were his parents. I felt so strongly about abused children I took some courses with my husband to be foster parents or adopt. My husband went back to school and we felt it was too stressful to be able to tend to a child's needs while he was in school. My nephew is now 23. He is working and has a girlfriend and has done well for himself. I know my husband and I and many others in my family were positive influences. I am proud that none of my siblings have repeated the abuse we grew up in. My brothers kids and sisters kids are always getting awarded something in school. They are good citizens. That is what I hope to be as a parent. To nurture good citizens.

I think one of the most positive forces in my life was my grade 5 teacher. He asked me what was going on at home. I said nothing because I only ever knew abuse. He always complimented my poetry. I used to bring him poetry to read that I wrote. I still write poetry at times.

Child abuse always has fallout but it can stop somewhere. I used to considered myself flawed. I don't so much anymore. I could never strike my child with a belt. The worst I ever did was rap my child on the nose when he stuck his arm out on purpose when my daughter was running and he made her choke and lose her breath. I rapped his nose and said you never ever put your hands on someone. I spoke to my therapist and she agreed with my reaction. I got his attention and what I did was not considered abusive. I have friends who were never abused and feel spanking is ok. I am not one of those because of my own experience.

The fallout for my children is that their biological extended family has limited access but justifiably so. I have created my own family from amazing people in my life. I don't consider it that much of a fallout because I have created a safe nurturing environment that includes 'healthy' people and those are the only ones that will be part of their lives. I will not expose them to potential abuse. I knew what my dad was wrong and it took me a long time through my teens to come to terms with it. I only ever internalized anger and never took it out on anyone else. Maybe because the message was that everyone else is worth more than me.

I was a very cautious child. I did not have any friends until around 9 years of age but still have those friends. I have been with my husband for more than 20 years. He was my third relationship. Not one of those relationships involved being hit or abused. I recognized that. I seen my mom's teeth knocked out. That was not going to happen to me. My first boyfriend (really young) was cheap but that was about it. We are still friends today and he is still cheap.

I just don't think people should think that just because they are the product of the abuse that they suffered that they will abuse children if they have them. Children are a gift and some people just do not appreciate how beautiful they are.

Pencil,
I love your makeup story and I think that no parent is perfect. I think your daughter will have the resilience you do and knowing you have different states and that the problem is not 'her' is the battle. You sound like a pretty good parent to me. I think the thread got a bit off track when I don't remember who stated that they would maybe have chose not to have kids or something like that for fear of being the same way :-)

 

[raven123]

Pencil, No worries. Good stuff.

Eleanor, I think the reason some of us dwell on it is we aren't really dwelling on it, but haven't figured out how to grieve over our losses properly and not just ignore. I ignored it cause, shrinks included, they didn't want me to talk about it. I have noticed if we are not heard, really heard not paid lip service, we are gonna continue to talk about it. I was never heard. So, I'm pretty cold anyway and have gotten colder. I was told I had/have a good heart and it was abused a lot. Both as a kid and as an adult.

Don't trip, I haven't had a relationship with anyone either. I wasn't taught how as a kid. :( We can learn how from the right person. The biggest problem I've found, offline for sure, is people are selfish as hell. They want you to give everything and them very little or nothing. Because of my age, I'm getting to that point where I'm so cold that f*ck 'em, who needs 'em, I ain't giving anymore.

 

[Don't trip]

This is what I know about parenting and something that has greatly humbled me:

There are no guarantees. Whether a child is raised in a healthy environment or not, there are absolutely no guarantees. We are human and we will make mistakes. Some can be corrected, others cannot. I don't know how old your children are, Mom, but if they are younger, the challenges are surely yet to come.

I'm not surprised by anything. Three of my children are healthy. Two, I'm hoping, will come to awareness and one is a hopeless cause.
So many factors are involved in whether or not a child turns out healthy.

My sister has four children. Her response to the abuse is to be a soccer Mom. She has them under a microscope. I see how her children responded to her when we had contact. They were frightened of her. She was controlling in trying to prevent abuse of her children. Smothering and over protective. She didn't think so, however, the eldest developed some serious issues in adolescence from the control she was living. I haven't seen them for a long, long time. I hope she fairs well.

I truly do think how we parent, is determined by how we responded/respond to abuse. Even then, there just aren't guarantees, although I wish that weren't true...

 

[Don't trip]

Raven,

I understand how you feel and there IS some truth to what your perceptions are of the world. My therapist told me that she has VERY FEW in her life that she would totally trust. FEW, not many.

Everyone has an agenda, EVERYONE. Although no one will tell you what it is. It's important to get to know people very well before giving them trust. I think part of the problem with survivors is readily giving away our trust, along with everything else, re: no boundaries, because the abusers required it.

We have to reparent ourselves. Those that had a model of some sort, were very fortunate if they came from an abusive environment. Those 'mentors' even if brief contact with the child was made in a healthy way, can make a monumental difference in a child's life. It can move them to reparent themselves with those others OUTSIDE the home that see the gift in the child.

Raven it's very hard for people to accept that there are people in this world, incapable of love. It's very hard for them to accept our stories when we say we had NO safety and NO mentors, that ALL were unsafe, because they HAD safety. Quick analogy here...

When I was finished having my children, SIX, mind you, so I'm not talking out my ass when I say I know what it's like to parent. A lot, lol! Anywho, I use to be so entertained by those who had not had children, yet considered themselves 'experts' or 'knowledgeable' in child rearing when they hadn't any children of their own. Oh sure, they worked with children or whatever, BUT, having them is a far different experience. It's like someone telling me what childbirth is like without having gone through experience. Yea....right!

Same thing with mothers now whose kids are young and easily malleable. Wait until they are teenagers! They start to sing a different tune and then sit and wonder, "WHAT DID I DO????? Junior is NOT behaving in a way that I TAUGHT him to behave! I can't understand this!" LOLOLOLOL...it cracks me up. It's easier when they have not yet his adolescence. This is actually the fun part of parenting, the age prior to adolescence.. Museum trips, doing creative and fun things...my grandchildren are at this age, and it IS fun. Adolescence? Anything can happen and everything you thought you taught them is completely up in the air. There are no guarantees...

So for those of us who didn't have even that, a parent who cared or spent time with us, it's hard for those who try to be good parents, or those who had mentors to understand total abandonment and hatred of a child. This is where reparenting ourselves is really, really hard. No one is going to feel 'sorry' for you and your deficits as an adult, nor your pain, even though you're busting your ass off with a broken or distorted compass. This would be much different if you were STILL a child. I understand how that feels, Raven. It's hard to trust in a world that is filled already, with stigmas, judgments, expectations, etc, of adults, when you're trying to navigate the world as an emotionally stunted twelve year old. My therapist told me that PTSD halts growth in children at the time of the first trauma.

The truth is that your lack of what you believe you didn't have or missed, makes other people feel uncomfortable because they don't understand it and they don't know how to help you. This makes recovery even harder to do. Your expected to 'act like an adult' and have the answers when you don't have them, when you need them.

If you can try to find a way to overcome it, Raven, you are stronger than many, many people who could not imagine walking in your shoes. The magnitude of the pain your feeling is partly from a lack of understanding from people who just don't 'get' it. You are in the pain of childbirth, emotionally, talking about it to people who haven't experienced that level of pain. Does this make sense?

It's sad that our level of pain makes others uncomfortable, but when you're facing the world, with a new awareness that you never experienced safety and not knowing how, the reality is that you will have to try to do it by yourself because yes, most people ARE selfish and are loathe to deal with us.

But it doesn't mean that people don't care. There are a few who do. I think expressing how you feel, frankly, is healthy.

It doesn't matter what others who don't care think. It's also really hard to ask for help. But I keep asking, literally screaming for it, because eventually, maybe someone will listen.

It sucks but ultimately we have to do the work. Don't apologize or defend how you feel. Just know that you're in the minority, but that that's okay. You can still work on recovery and I do understand exactly what you're facing. :)

 

[MomOfTwo]

Raven,

I think you have a good heart and there is a person out there that will appreciate it one day. Not everyone in the world is horrible and it sounds like you had a life of heart ache. I am tapping out my anxieties and it is supposed to work for supposedly everything. I don't know if I really believe but my therapist said you do not have to believe. You just tap on some points at at the end do the Gamut exercise which many tapping videos do not include. My husband tried it for his backache and he had less pain after doing a round of EFT. (Emotional Freedom Technique) It is funny because I have been doing it and not really believing so much in it and the last couple of nights I have fallen asleep so much faster. I am not sure if we can post links or not but it is EFT using the Gamut technique at the end if you want to try it. It is supposed to help people with pretty much anything in life. Some people say it can help you have financial success and find a relationship. I am not so sure about the latter but my anxiety seems to have been lessened.

I used to work in a shelter for teenagers and maybe as well that has helped me in my recovery. I mentored teens one on one and ran groups with them on different topics. I worked with teenagers that came from very dysfunctional homes. I must say out of the hundreds of teens I seen would we rarely see a teen whose parents were involved in their lives. The ones that had their children in hockey, dance and other esteem building sports/activities were rarely kids we seen in our shelter.

The worst one to deal with was someone I grew up with. Her father was raping her repeatedly. He felt it was ok because she was adopted. I never liked her dad and now I know why. I seem to have a pretty good gut instinct about people. I think that is having heightened awareness from growing up in a very hostile environment. Many years later I received a call from a girl I worked with and she told me she was happily married and had twins and told me how I changed her life and how thankful she was. I think about that often. She was even going to university part time. It made me feel like I did make a difference. I am looking forward to every developmental milestone and know there will be a point in raising my children that they think I am 'dumb' or don't know where they are coming from. The foundation and formative years they say are the most important and I agree. I think when children are made to feel safe and feel loved and that they are worth something they are less apt to try drugs to 'numb' themselves or other behaviours to deal with life.

I know so many successful parents that have teens in university now. Like I said prior I waited to have my children much later in life. I will be old by the time my children graduate from university. :) They say that keeping their kids involved in stuff was key.

 

[raven123]

Don't Trip, Thank you. I grew up not being able to even trust God so that kinda screwed it for humans.

Momoftwo, Thank you. You sound like a great mom. I don't know why more teachers didn't see how screwed up I was. Only one kindergarten teacher did. Only one that raised the issue. I wasn't in huge classes up till junior high. Some of it was teachers really didn't like military kids. Lots of military kids had the same gripes--we were all treated as subclass citizens by schools locked out of a lot of things open to others.

It's terrible how some people treat people cause they think they are worthless. It's sad. Hope one day they get what's coming to them. I've been looking for self-esteem builders. Some of the opposite thinking exercises, I just didn't buy. I don't think I'm worthless but I don't think I'm worth much. I don't know how I'll turn out. I feel guilty even giving myself a break. :( I'll write more later.

 

[Eleanor]

Honestly, I have no personal insight into the question at the top of this thread. Thinking about it theoretically the only hypothesis I can come up with (and I share it only because it doesn't seem to have been floated yet) is this:

Some people (I will not honor them with the title "parent" here) who hate themselves deeply produce children. They then project their hatred of themselves onto their children and proceed to act out their hatred on said children. Since this does not produce any noticeable long term relief of their self-hatred (how could it?) but does give some momentary release to their uncomfortable feelings it becomes an addictive cycle. Other things being equal (which of course they are not, as children grow up) the abuse gets worse, until the child can get away and then it slows/stops/changes form.

Do such people love the children they produce? I cannot imagine whether they do or not. It is hard to imagine people who hate themselves so deeply and who are so unconscious could properly be said to be capable of loving ANYONE, since they so clearly do not love themselves. And one of the principles I use to make sense of people is that it is impossible to treat other people better than you treat yourself. You can treat other people worse, but generally not better. (I have to say I hate this principle on a regular basis, but every time I think I AM treating someone else better than I treat myself I have turned out to be wrong.:notworthy:)

The children, if the hypothesis above is right, don't have any control over what happens at all. They don't have any more control over their abuse than the alcohol has over the drinker. They are just "place holders." Easy items to transfer self hatred onto.

The cosmic scale injustice is that the children (who need control over their little worlds) will contort their beliefs six ways to Sunday to try to get some sense of control - and in doing so almost certainly adopt the belief(s) that they are not worthy of love or respect or care or nurture and healing generally. But this reasoning, like so much of the reasoning that children do, is flawed. (My six year old or so cousin once asked me when I was sixteen if I was a mother. This was a surprising question. I said. "No, no I am not a mother. Why did you think I might be?" He said, "Well, you sew.":laugh:) The belief that you could do or fail to do something that would make an otherwise loving parent suddenly hate you is, I think, similarly mistaken.

Don't know if this is at all true/helpful, but it fits with my theory of human nature. You guys would know whether there is a grain of truth in it, or if it is just hypothetical bull:poop:.

 

[raven123]

Eleanor, Good stuff. I think, overall, I've treated others way better than they've treated me. I've always considered others more valuable than me, too. That's what I was taught. My sperm donor had needs so I didn't I was taught by him and my mom. I don't believe I'm worthless anymore but I don't believe I'm worth much either. That's sounds terrible though it is a start.

And, he used religion to reinforce those lies, which hurt anything to do with God. Actually, now that I think of it, he used Jesus more than God to hurt me. I talk to God. I rarely talk to Jesus. I was told, in so many ways, I wasn't worthy of Jesus. I've hated churches since I was a kid because they were not a refuge. I'm sure I thought back then God didn't give a damn about me cause "his people" didn't seem to.

The Bible was used as a weapon, too, by my sperm donor then by myself with self-hate. I get panic attacks even thinking about it. I'm sure God knows what she's gotten into. If God hadn't done a few things (and one today), I wouldn't have give her a second chance. I say she and her cause men in authority give me nightmares, panic attacks. God is the mother of the church. God is who you need God to be. I really would hate to be my sperm donor one day. Just what he did to me I don't think God is gonna have much mercy over.