Self Destruction: Intimacy And Infidelity

[Powder]

I appreciate the real honesty here in this thread.

For me, this type of compulsion occurred for me in my younger days, and I am not sure what the etiology of it was, other than I would add to the above list of triggers:

1. Fear of intimacy (not sex, intimacy/vulnerability) in the course of a relationship, aka, fear of relationships, but feeling like I NEED one after all.
2. Shame. Untapped, profound self-image issues. Can't find the root of these issues as they go back to early childhood or infancy with profound abandonment depression.
3. Letting stress and fears get the best of me; not fighting back with clear thinking and reality checks.

On some level, the love I am receiving fails to reach the deep self-hatred that I cannot seem to understand or even gain access to. In that sense, I was tempted to just toss it. Lucky for me, my husband could see this dynamic and was patient with me, accepted me for who I am and what I am struggling with. With time, I just realized how to better manage the above three, but I am still in pain, still have major insecurity problems that cause me pain on a daily basis. Life is suffering. But I can reduce any output of suffering for myself and others by my actions and thoughts.

Relationships like this are more healing than anything. They raise the bar on how I must treat myself and others.To preserve the relationship, I have to respect myself and him and both our rights. This more or less forces a certain level of emotional intimacy and emotional honesty, which is really hard work. I think relationships, even simple ones at work, take sincere effort. But it is worth it, and it helps anyone work on him or herself at the same time.

Recognizing it is moving past denial, the most difficult 1st step, so I think that's a good sign you are growing.

 

[Kintsugi]

Question for all who were sexually abused at an early age:

Do you feel there is something inherently and perpetually virginal about you, and is this part of your identity as a sexual being?

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Uhm, yes? Wow Simon, this is getting sort of eerie.

I'm 30-something and still can't admit to anyone that I'm involved with someone (on any level) because that sexual aspect remains hidden. I know this must sound like I'm all over the place... I have no problems seeing that others are sexual, but I don't want others to see it in me. I mean its ok if the target of affection sees it, but nobody else. If I ever got pregnant? OMG then I'd have to show the world that I actually have sex. It would be like worlds colliding in my mind.

My sister is 7 years younger and married. Of course everyone knows she's sexually active at this point and that is normal. But for me, personally? Its almost like I have to keep up the perception that I am "pure".....never wanted to admit to the sexual stuff (abuse) as a kid, so that just sort of naturally carries over into adulthood. Its not like at age 18 your brain says ok, sex is now normal, you're ok! No need to hide it anymore! Nope! My brain still wants to hide it. Stupid brain.

That's probably part of why I don't even like to talk about or admit to getting flirted with or getting hit on.

 

[Kefira]

That's an interesting question @Simply Simon. I'll go ahead and answer because even though I was in my early teens the abuse was my first 'sexual experience' on any level, and I think for me that's part of what's made it so damaging.

I don't know that I really think of it in exactly those terms, but yes probably? I know that I physically couldn't talk about sex even with my partners up until recently. And even then it's difficult. When I do I do so more in vague or general terms.

never wanted to admit to the sexual stuff (abuse) as a kid, so that just sort of naturally carries over into adulthood.

^ THIS! If my partner wants me to completely shut down all they have to do is push for me to tell them what I want while I'm already trying to emotionally detach from an intimate experience. It will literally bring me to tears curled up in a little ball. It's hard for me to understand because it's like something short circuits in my brain and it's not a direct carryover from the abuse. Just the concept of having to own to wanting anything sexual, compounded with the idea that they'll be upset if I don't spins me out so fast. My jaw literally physically locks up and I can't speak until I calm down.

And I also understand about not admitting getting hit on @Solara. It's threatening to me, and I try to pretend it didn't happen and secret it away. Brings up all of that shame and the feelings that at my core I must only be valuable to anyone for my body and for what I could do for them physically.

Lots to think about. Thank you for all of the openness and honesty guys. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who struggles this way.

 

[Kintsugi]

I am pretty certain that the reason I am always an exciting sexual partner to B is because I act like a virgin. Every time. Every time I feel like sex is completely new. I absolutely do not want to be laying these words bare here, but this is the whole truth of the matter.

And I've been aware for years that part of my appeal is that I am stuck in this bizarre place where I am a seductive person with an incommensurate level of innocence about me. I am child-like in some ways.

Maybe that doesn't seem so bad as lots of people don't consider it a commitment until that conversation takes place, but when I meet someone new and he asks if I'm seeing anyone, the lovely little reasoning in my mind says "no, I'm not seeing anyone" because, of course, that specific conversation hasn't taken place. I don't sexually bounce between guys, back and forth, because no, that's not my deal. But, I must admit, that I can charm a guy, I know what it takes to make him feel special, and in return he gives me that attention that I so desire.

This is why I write about this as being infidelity. Because I know that in a big way, I am purposely misleading people. I've been found out, though, and it hasn't been a major deterrent, which is frankly more perturbing than feeling I've just pulled the wool over some guy's eyes with my act.

I wouldn't know how to go out and make a female friend in real life if my life depended on it! (Of course the internet is different.)

Ditto.

Well, scratch that. Let me rephrase. I wouldn't know how to go out and make a STRAIGHT female friend. I realize that in my past I've been able to use the charm factor on lesbians just as I would with men because I can cross that sexual line. Well, you know, that line of flirtation that you'd never use on another straight woman? The thing is that I don't consider myself to be gay or even bisexual. Its just how I relate to people, with that seductiveness if you will.

Ditto.

And now I feel bad....Have I been leading people on all this time? Have any of those feelings been real? (Ugh, the rearview mirror second guessing that goes on in my head!) What if I'm doing the same thing right now with the guy I'm currently getting to know? He's been chasing me for quite a long time now. How do I know if I really like him vs. just trying to get attention? I really do need to take it slow with this one. Fortunately, with such a long chase, he knows I'm not ready to jump into anything.

I know I've truly cared about these people. Just not half as much as I knew they cared about me. And they were more pets than romances. But I typically know within a couple of days maximum whether or not I am really and sincerely interested in them. I know when I know that I would get physical with them. And I can just tell very quickly.

I understand the "getting away with it" bit. Sometimes I wonder the same thing, too. Do I make these guys feel so wonderful that they are willing to turn a blind eye to the things that I do? Do they truly not notice? [The guilt is kicking in again, but I refuse to be one of those chicks who thinks commitment begins at "hello"...]

I know that I have gotten away with murder in plain view. I don't know how. I look back at some things and can't help but laugh; it all sounds so unbelievable to me sometimes.

I wonder if an aversion to being seen as someone (particularly a woman) who lusts after commitment and becomes inordinately attached to a relationship very quickly is another thread here. I know I despise girls and women who become instantly and deeply attached to a romantic prospect. It makes me sick.

I had been seeing a boy a few days a week for a couple of months. One day he just flat out demanded more of my time as well as a commitment to monogamy. I had told him several times that I was not interested in being in a bonafide relatioship. He handed me this demand and I just doubled over laughing. I feel so bad now. But I was explaining how ridiculous and naive he sounded through my laughter. It was just terrible. He was heartbroken. I went through a few more boys that year during the eight (celibate) months B courted me before he and I finally settled down and identified as an item.

I felt sick for that boy. Just like I feel sick when I've heard girls all weepy over some guy they've only known for a few weeks.

Maybe this isn't common, but it was something you said that I really identified with, Solara.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I am pretty certain that the reason I am always an exciting sexual partner to B is because I act like a virgin. Every time. Every time I feel like sex is completely new. I absolutely do not want to be laying these words bare here, but this is the whole truth of the matter.

My initial response to this was "how the hell do you act like a virgin!?!" No, you don't have to answer that! I guess my point is that I never had that experience so I have no idea what that would even begin to look like. I go the tiger route, lol.

I wonder if an aversion to being seen as someone (particularly a woman) who lusts after commitment and becomes inordinately attached to a relationship very quickly is another thread here. I know I despise girls and women who become instantly and deeply attached to a romantic prospect. It makes me sick.

Funny that you mention that, as it sort of sickens me, too. I can become interested and flirty pretty fast, but its definitely not deep and if they break it off after a short while, I'm only upset for a day or so before I move on. I know people who bounce from relationship to relationship and they're ALL "deep and meaningful". I'm not sure exactly how they get that to work each and every time though. I think part of it is that I view my independence as one of my most prized "possessions" so I see those who either have no [emotional] independence by constantly bouncing from relationship to relationship or throw that independence away so easily, and it just seems pathetic to me.

I had been seeing a boy a few days a week for a couple of months. One day he just flat out demanded more of my time as well as a commitment to monogamy. I had told him several times that I was not interested in being in a bonafide relatioship. He handed me this demand and I just doubled over laughing. I feel so bad now. But I was explaining how ridiculous and naive he sounded through my laughter. It was just terrible. He was heartbroken. I went through a few more boys that year during the eight (celibate) months B courted me before he and I finally settled down and identified as an item.

Well maybe I'm horrible too because I started laughing when I read this. He DEMANDED your monogamy? Was it like an ultimatum? He does sound a bit ridiculous. You can't just demand those things from someone!

 

[Powder]

This is clearly a matter of personal preference or proclivity, nothing more

I sympathize because I think many feminists feel some sort of disgust with traditional roles. I would like to hear why this kind of thing is off-putting to you. I don't blame you for feeling sick, only wish to point out it may be offensive. I am monogamous, but you don't offend me. I am not naive.

 

[Kintsugi]

@Muse I am an exceptionally monogamous person in the sense that when I am in a monogamous relationship, it is almost always very long term (years-long). But when friends of mine or co-workers meet a guy at a bar one night, maybe go out on one date, and then later that week they're freaking out because he hasn't texted in OMG 16 hours... I find it off-putting.

I think it is a fear of vulnerability that makes me see this behavior as sickening. I would never let myself become attached to someone if I were unsure I had them, hook bait and sinker. The person I've messed with in my whole life who feels about the same level of attachment as I do (instead of way, way more attached) is my current partner, who I've been with for five years. Everyone else... I could have walked out on, and I was positive they would never do that to me. It was a much safer arrangement for my feelings. I didn't have to be scared or worried. And it took a long time for me to attach at all, even if I was feeding them all of this "I care about you so much" BS I seem to cook up.

 

[Powder]

Thanks for expressing this feeling. I can relate to the fear of vulnerability part quite a bit. Much sounds like familiar territory, emotionally.

Despise is a strong word for someone's behavior that isn't technically damaging to someone else. Maybe it is the emotion threat to the woman herself for letting herself get attached. Maybe it's like watching someone inflict damage on herself so needlessly. I wonder.

Do you tend to do the breaking up to avoid being hurt, or do the damage, to ensure you will be broken up with? That, for me, seemed to go with the pattern of that particular fear of vulnerability. Still dealing with that urge from time to time, when feeling the combo of Dread and Vulnerability.

However, after doing some reading and thinking about this for a long time, I'm thinking this falls under the term "attachment disorder" particular attachment style from an abusive/neglectful attachment, at least in my case. This has helped me to see what lies at the root and how to address this more fully "by the horns" mentally. However, this way of understanding it has not helped "fix it." That's for sure. I feel it gives me a better handle on how to narrate my story to myself and to see how this has played out in my emotional needs.

Hope some of the above makes some kinda sense. Goodness knows, all the stuff on here is not a strong point for me to express. It's hard to talk about that which I lack.

 

[Powder]

...

Do you feel there is something inherently and perpetually virginal about you...?

Great question. I did feel that way for the first few years in this current long-term relationship. When a sense of Trust was reached, that fell away and something else was propping it up, was there the whole time. I'm sure there is more beneath that, too.

Now the sense of virginal despite fact has passed, I still feel that there is a part of my personality that is in perpetual denial. Just still in denial that "it happened" or could happen. Feels closely related to me as virginal or a part held back from the intimacy that could not participate in it. This is the child part, who should have melted away when I was four and made way for five. I don't know how I'm coping with that, to be honest. I'm not doing that well with it still.

I feel that there is a large part of me who is frozen in time. I am still 4, on several levels, and time/the "self clock" is stuck on that time when trauma halted that part of my growing sense of self. I became highly self-conscious, to the point of extreme shame and shyness. I felt vulnerable that I could be "looked at" as a sex object, and this horrid objectification was internalized. At the same time, my mother was a distant narcissist in her own world, gazing at her own loveliness in the mirror, and I was invisible.

I have often felt like an unprotected target with sexual gaze. As I've worked to integrate my inner children, traumatized parts, this has improved because when people look at me with lust, I feel now that they are looking at the adult me, not the abused child-me.

Yet, I feel fear often. This brings on the denial and I try to blend in, appear unattractive/unavailable, or somehow to Hide. I actually wished I were invisible to my father, so I learned how to self-efface and become a boring prey. But at the same time, I was neglected and invisible to my mother. Terrible quandary it was. I have spent too much time blaming myself for being invisible to one parent while making every effort to be with the other. Now I see mother is a narcissist (textbook case in a long line of them) I realize that I didn't make myself invisible to her, I already was and always will be no matter what I do. I no longer have contact.

Now I realize it wasn't my fault. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It deeply affects me now, but I'm awakened to its effects, somewhat.

That's what you're doing. I think it's good.

The most healing thing has been to witness and be present with myself as a person, and not an object, even for a moment. It's baby steps for me.

I find it all challenging. Being in a relationship while going through all this is exhausting. There is so much that has been exhumed that I thought was dead and buried that has yet to be dealt with. Some days I feel like a zombie. Other days, I feel more alive but in pain.

This is an interesting and very important question and discussion. Thank you. I will read with interest.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I don't understand why feminism and being off put by traditional roles is being brought into all of this? I didn't read any of that in Simon's post, not in the least. Honestly, for me, it has nothing to do with feminism. I am NOT a feminist and those people make me sick. But hey that's another rant for another thread (oh, wait, already been there a number of times, lol). Just because someone doesn't want to be monogamous doesn't mean they're a feminist, and I find this sort of argument to be a bit ridiculous. People don't make such crazy claims about men who decide to never settle down. Why does a woman who doesn't want to settle down get labeled as a feminist?!?! Seriously, I want to scream...

 

[Kintsugi]

I plead guilty to using strong language. I do think I feel this way because I see them as placing themselves in danger, and I can't seem to find anything that would convince them of this, or I never did back when I used to try.

I feel that there is a large part of me who is frozen in time. I am still 4, on several levels, and time/the "self clock" is stuck on that time when trauma halted that part of my growing sense of self. I became highly self-conscious, to the point of extreme shame and shyness. I felt vulnerable that I could be "looked at" as a sex object, and this horrid objectification was internalized. At the same time, my mother was a distant narcissist in her own world, gazing at her own loveliness in the mirror, and I was invisible.

I have often felt like an unprotected target with sexual gaze. As I've worked to integrate my inner children, traumatized parts, this has improved because when people look at me with lust, I feel now that they are looking at the adult me, not the abused child-me.

I quoted such a big block here because I relate so deeply with so much of it. How am I virginal... I'm not exactly sure, really, but there is some sort of vulnerability or openness or something that I know people can see, and it seems to lend me a deceptively innocent quality. I call it the Lolita Complex. I am stuck in the mode of a child who is accustomed to being treated as a sexual object. I'm ashamed just talking about all this here. I feel like I should not say that all of this is inside of me.

Yet, I feel fear often. This brings on the denial and I try to blend in, appear unattractive/unavailable, or somehow to Hide.

I have adopted many methods to do this myself and tried several others throughout time. An odd conversation we've got ourselves here. I know that I have pattern of manipulating men into having these highly emotionally intimate relationships with me, and I know that I project myself as a sexual object, but I do all of these things to hide my body, or I make it a big point to say that I'm in a relationship if I am in one. Yet this crap goes on anyway.

Here's something else I'll bring up. How picky are you when it comes to accepting the adoration of some guy? Not reciprocating. I mean how many times will you flat out tell them to GTFO, if you will. I'm curious. I have a very hard time shutting down men, even if they're horrible and I hate them. It has to be pretty bad for me to get serious.