Respect Chat Or Lose It Individually, Part 2

[lostforgottensoul]

People are from diverse locations globally, and ER may not simply be an option for some, others may have bad experiences with them, the list of possibilities goes on.

This I do understand. They were from the US and had just said they didnt want to go to the ER but was discribing life threatening sympotoms, over and over and over (getting worse) while everyone urging them to go to the ER and I ended up worrying myself to death.

Is it better to just leave chat or should one be reported? Im only asking because im confused.

Most said report and im just trying to figure out what to report (I know its staff's job to figure out if its "reportable" but i dont wanna report everything and drive you guys mad).

Would it just have been better to just say "ok, do what you feel you need to" and leave?

Its just that im the kind of person that wouldnt sleep due to worrying about them. So i didnt know what to do.

Sorry for all of the annoying questions...

 

[Kintsugi]

@lostforgottensoul When in doubt, report. Reports, even when the behavior is not necessarily in violation of policy, help staff see the bigger picture with some members and alerts us to potentially worrying behavior in addition to actionable content.

If you report someone in chat, give a rough time frame for when the behavior occurred, and I don't think anyone will be driven mad over it... we volunteer for this job. Although giving a time frame is massively helpful. ;)

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Thanks @Simply Simon! I think I could drive anyone mad but that helps!

 

[anthony]

The best way to report chat is to copy a single line of text from the chat where the issue is happening, and include that in the report. Staff can use that to instantly find the issue in the chat logs.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Simon.

Actually, calling someone "a manipulator" is saying that the person uses manipulative behaviors and does not cast aspersions on state of mind, just behaviours, for which you do not need to access someone's mind or motives.

Without getting into splitting hairs, I agree that someone can be perceived as acting in a manipulative way, just as someone can be perceived as acting in a narcissistic or paranoid way.
That's still a long way from being that person's main mode of operation, or the defining characteristic of their personality.

I'm not saying don't act on the feeling and get the hell away from the person, or report them. What I am saying is there's a big difference between states that a person can get into, and traits that they show all of the time.

To describe someone as "a manipulator" implies that that is their trait, that is what the are, and that is their aim.

For someone who asserts that one person does not know what is in another's head, you sure do like to shrink hypothetical people's heads. Such speculation on the potential problems members could have is just as insane as assuming people run red lights or cut you off because they're rushing to a dying person's bedside or are in labor; it's just hypothesizing, and it doesn't alter the objective and objectionable behaviors being witnessed.

(emphasis added)
I have access to my own mind and to the descriptions that other people on here have given me of their dissociative/ amnesic compartments. A PTSD forum is probably as good a place as any to encounter some people who experience varying degrees of dissociation.

If you re read my original comment, you will see that I offered it as a possible alternative to. Not as a definite interpretation of.

In your paragraph, you appear to be attributing excessive concreteness to my statement, where none was implied. It would be like me trying to interpret your red light example as implying that because not all people running red lights are rushing to a dying person's bedside or in labour, then none are. When that clearly isn't the case.

Bullshit! Oh, my god. Bullshit.

Really?
It's taken pretty much whole cloth from the "non pejorative terminology" section in the introduction to Linehan, 1993, Cognitive behavioural treatment of borderline personality disorder.
I stand by my wider guess that even beyond those who have diagnoses for BPD, very few people on this forum have the skills necessary for manipulating others.

Incidentally, you might like to consider what the consequences would be for a forum member who used the terms "insane" and "Bullshit" when replying to a post by a member who also holds the position of moderator?

... stated generalizations that there are people out there who don't always have the best of intentions.

or the best of outcomes for others - I don't dis agree, and I'm sorry if that didn't come accross as clearly as I'd hoped.

And also, imputing behaviors to mental health is as pointless as imputing motives. It is irrelevant. And it's takes just as many crystal balls and tea leaves.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I hope I made it clear, that if we are uncomfortable with someone's behaviour, get out of the way of harm and possibly report the instance that we've seen.
but on the wider point, without me specifically calling member Alice In Wonderland's assessment "judgemental" - because I think it would be unfair on her, as (in the context of her comment) she was illustrating her point, and I stressed that my picking up on the comment was not personal.

To summarise the two points I was making in that comment:
I think it is important that we do protect ourselves, but that we do not jump to judgements that we don't have the evidence to support.
@

 

[Suzetig]

Very few of the people who come to this forum have the interpersonal skills necessary to be able to deliberately manipulate someone else.

I really struggle with this. If you consider "manipulative" to be a perjorative term, I can understand your assertion - who wants to be considered manipulative, right? However I think of manipulation as behaviours people engage in to get their needs met. Are some of those behaviours challenging? Unpleasant? Indirect? Absolutely, however people here may have many experiences of having their direct expression of need met with inaction and indifference, or violence and harm so they need to be able to behave in ways that get enough of their needs met for survival.

While those behaviours might be automatic, ie not needing much though or be habitual, I don't think that it's an unconscious thing so much as doing what has worked in the past. Learning to express my needs and ask directly for what I want is a massive learning curve for me and one I'm still on to some extent. While I might not recognise my behaviours as being manipulative, it doesn't mean they're not or that on some level I haven't decided to do X manipulative behaviour instead of Y directly asking behaviour.

We have people here with very strong interpersonal skills, who manage their relationships with skill and gentleness - to suggest that people with PTSD are incapable of purposely manipulating others is pretty disrespectful and disingenuous.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Suzetig,

Can I stress that "very few" does not necessarily imply "none".

I'll paraphrase Linehan to illustrate the point I'm trying to make about the term "manipulative" being both incorrect and pejorative when it's applied to people who are probably not using it deliberately.

Would the grimaces, lack of patience and social graces, coupled with the pleading for company coming from a person who is in chronic pain (for example a cancer patient who is receiving insufficeint pain relief) be described as "manipulative actions"?

Without getting all into Franz Brentano , and the logic of conscious actions as opposed to unconscious behaviours. If it is not conscious, as in gaslighting, fraud, swindle, grooming etc, then it is not manipulation, it is simply the only way that the person knows for getting their needs met.

Clearly we don't know whether another person is doing something consciously or unconsciously

So, in chat;
1) if we are uncomfortable, take the necessary to safeguard ourselves, and possibly report.
2) don't judge - because we usually don't know for sure, and there is a good chance that the person may not have the skills to be doing it deliberately. but by all means be cautious of that person.

 

[shimmerz]

don't judge -

This was a huge wall for me to climb. Having come from crazyville traumatic places before I could think (infant/toddler), I always seem to be searching for 'why'. Why is this person doing this? It has been a large mistake throughout my life and probably the strongest reason why I am still battling to see 'who I am'. It's also a really big distraction tool.

'Why' matters to me (I have learned) because I feel like if I can get to 'the why's' of other's behaviours, then I can avoid potential (or likely) disaster by changing MY behaviour. I have been driven all of my life to 'react' based on the actions of others around me due to hard, hard lessons in my infancy. Without my even knowing it 'I' became the sum total of 'your' behaviour.

I want out of that cage. These days, i have learned that if I offer my help or support to someone and they make it easy for me to help and support them, then I am all in. Otherwise, I walk away. 'I will leave that with you' is a phrase I learned to say when I chose to walk away. It has helped a ton.

Insofar as the interpersonal skills aspect? I believe that the majority of this world is highly traumatized. How could we not be? Look at what goes on in this world. Most people just don't know it yet and internalize it through disease/odd behaviours/addictions etc. Mine just leaks through in a 'more noticeable way. So, interpersonally? Most of the population is screwed/slanted/jaded etc. Another reason why we should be 'leaving it with you'. This isn't just a forum issue. It is everywhere.... My stuff is my stuff, yours is yours. If you are clear enough and I can help then I will, otherwise, get out of my way. I have shit to do.

So for the person who was refusing ER advice? 'Sounds like you've got this. I will leave it with you. Hey! How's the weather there?'

Having said all of that, I am still not ready for chat. Randomness is not good for me and I find the chat room too random for me at this point in time. I know that, I don't beat myself up for it, I just keep away most times.

 

[UnKnown-Self]

@shimmerz

"WHY?"

*sighs* I know that place so well it has its own section in Wonderland. I think I visit it more often that necessary because sometimes there is no answer that will satisfy. But, maybe it is just part of the process. I try to visit the Wonderland section of how do I get past it more because I think (MHO only) that is time spent working towards moving forward.

Maybe it's both and other things too.
Like those people who exercise, I hear they do one exercise like running, then they do a little weight lifting and then they do some stretches, I think they eat right and avoid a bunch of stuff but you get my meaning.

I'll leave you with a quote that was written in my 12 Step book by a counselor upon leaving my stint in rehab when I was 20 years old. Lost the book and I drink occasionally but I never forgot the quote.

“He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how." - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Ed Norton]

I'm not staff or anything just saying when people come to chat and act f*cked up..my usual reaction is to say Just let em talk they crazy..if I feel like someone is really being hurt by someone else...especially one of my ladies here well I do something my own way..follow the rules..yes but I do it my way the fly way :cool: those ones all seem to just disappear..anyhow..I like a lot of people who have been banned but I never pitch about the decision cuz I dont know what may be behind the scenes..so I S T F U and mind my F lovin business..staff aren't ass holes they are people with PTSD and maybe other stuff..who can't ignore what they don't like

 

[Ed Norton]

well maybe the staff aren't ass holes but I am.. does a self attack count as a personal attack..well if it is then some ass hole will ban me :P

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Can I stress that "very few" does not necessarily imply "none".

So for the person who was refusing ER advice? 'Sounds like you've got this. I will leave it with you. Hey! How's the weather there?'

This person was too busy advising us of how many life threatening symptoms she had and how bad they were getting to speak of the weather or anything else for that matter.

She had the entire chat room speaking just to her "go to the ER...because of XYZ". All of the attention on her.

A MOD comes in and starts to chat, i say "[user] im worried about you" and she states she's ok and leaves the room.

If you dont see this as purposely manuliplive and attention seeking, i dont know what it is.

Ok then you have another recent issue that I will not give details of other than I what I already have, i was purposely manipulated to go offsite, and eventually talked into a phone call due to "needing help" and they didnt need help at all, they knew why they wanted to take me off site the entire time...i didnt (purposely manipulated) and this person has now taken up the habit of what id call internet stalking me and continously asking to be my friend on social media, though denied each time and still blowing up my phone with text but now go into a spam folder.

Then you have those that are undiagnosed, those that have comorbilty (most, but not most have BPD) and some of the other disorders such as psycopathy, narassicitic personality disorder, and many other things where being purposely maniuplive is part of the other disorder(s).

Then the other half of the site, the supporters. The ones that dont have PTSD or any mental disorder for that matter. I am sure most of those people have interpersonal skills and some have manipulated; though most are wonderful people, I dont want to give the impression im downing any one group or even one person...im just making a point.

Then you have the trolls, the people that join here just to manipulate others. Ran across a few of them as well.

To say most here lack the interpersonal skills to purposely manipluate another is just like saying most here do. You cant generalize people like that and must always remember, this is the internet. How do you know this person is whom they say they are, went through what they said they have, have PTSD or any mental disorder, and arent here just to manipulate people?

I do appreciate you stating this about BPD because manipulating is what most thought I was doing and if I was, it wasnt on purpose...to me I was defending against eventually being hurt. None of what I did was on purpose.

But to state most on the entire forum, thats where you and I disagree because you dont know what other disorders they have, if they are sufferer or supporter sometimes, if they are even have PTSD at all and and whom they say they are or anything they say is true.

These days, i have learned that if I offer my help or support to someone and they make it easy for me to help and support them, then I am all in. Otherwise, I walk away. 'I will leave that with you' is a phrase I learned to say when I chose to walk away. It has helped a ton.

That may be what you need to do for you but to give you an alternative view, most of us (or me) that have been badly traumatized and then hurt over and over and over when reached out of help, they become automatically defensive, like an abused animal that bites you to defend themselves because they have no clue you are trying to help. So to look for someone that makes it easy to help is to look pretty hard.

But also keep in mind that people can change, can realize that people here arent here just to hurt them and are now easier to help.

To orginally ask why, the answer would be "everyone is going to hurt me"...I think most can work with that.

Just my alternative view to that. Again, just must do what's right for you just like we all have to.