Respect Chat Or Lose It Individually, Part 2

[joeylittle]

If you dont see this as purposely manuliplive and attention seeking, i dont know what it is.

It's just behavior. That's all. It was upsetting to you; it sounds like it was upsetting to at least one other person, maybe more.

@lostforgottensoul - you are a person with BPD and as one, know how emotional needs can sometimes trump everything else. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it OK, it just is a fact.

@Anarchy - if we are going to speak about mental health, broadly, then I think we need to leave it at "many mentally ill are not at all conscious of behavior that 'manipulates' - and many others are." There are plenty of disorders that have conscious manipulation as an actual symptom. They aren't the ones we primarily deal with here, but they exist. Linnehan is talking about BPD specifically, and she is (I believe) correct in her comparison to chronic pain, here:

Would the grimaces, lack of patience and social graces, coupled with the pleading for company coming from a person who is in chronic pain (for example a cancer patient who is receiving insufficeint pain relief) be described as "manipulative actions"?

You are putting a great deal of emphasis on the probability that the motive is unconscious; I am saying that we have no way to gauge that, and so, it is enough to recognize that it may be unconscious, without arguing that it is most often unconscious.

If there is to be more debate about this, please start another thread for it. For this thread, I think we can all agree to not know what someone might or might not have been thinking.

Ok then you have another recent issue that I will not give details of other than I what I already have, i was purposely manipulated to go offsite, and eventually talked into a phone call due to "needing help" and they didnt need help at all, they knew why they wanted to take me off site the entire time...i didnt (purposely manipulated) and this person has now taken up the habit of what id call internet stalking me and continously asking to be my friend on social media, though denied each time and still blowing up my phone with text but now go into a spam folder.

This is the last time you are going to relate this episode on the forum, @lostforgottensoul. It has been fully addressed, as far as we are concerned, here. Stop re-hashing it, or you will be thread-banned. Thanks.

Personally I think it is a bad idea to hop onto chat when all fired up and it is up to those around the chat room at the time to recognize that this person IS fired up. That is part of OUR OWN healing process. I suggest focusing on that. It isn't up to us to 'heal' someone else, even if she can't figure out whether to go to the ER.

This is well-said. Learning how to not get amped up by other peoples' energy is a very useful life skill, and probably an essential chat-room skill.

Im not judging, Im not saying she IS manipulating or was on purpose (and maybe I miss worded it) what Im saying is thats how it seemed to me. It got me super worried were i couldnt sleep, I couldnt do anything but stare at the chat waiting for her to post because in my worried brain, if she didnt then something bad happened. So to me, that seemed to me manipulation on purpose due to the continuious posting after posting on and on of symptoms that ended up worse and more life threatening than the last.

Yes, you are saying the person was manipulating. I'm glad you are seeing now that it may or may not have been that. But you staying up late because you were worried, that was your choice, and no-one is responsible for that except you.

Im not sure how this got turned to on purpose or not on purpose manipulation.

You participated in that; see the quote at the top of my post, here. You aren't the only one, but you are the one who has been the most vocal about it. I'm pointing this out because it appears that you jumped to defending a point that you (perhaps) didn't even mean to defend, and in the future, slowing down your posting will help you avoid that.

We can all only be responsible for ourselves.

We have the few rules we have because there are a few specific types of situations that put undue pressure on a mental health community

• Suicidal posting
• Personal attack
• Advertising/self promotion

We have staff to deal with something that is murkier, but sits between the lines of those three, above: Disruption.

A reminder: the conversation on manipulation is a very interesting one, and if someone would like to continue it, they should start a thread in one of the discussion forums. For the purposes of this thread, it is done.

A final thought about help, and offering help, and receiving help: all anyone can do (as @shimmerz said well) is offer. After you've offered, if the person does not want to accept it, that's the end of that. Because we identify with each other, and the struggles can seem so familiar, we often try a few more times - that's pretty normal, for a mental health group. But no-one can make you do anything, and you cannot make anyone else do anything. You always have the choice to walk away, and put your attention on something that is going to be good and therapeutic for you.

I hope that part of walking away can include using the report button. It would be very helpful. I can't make anyone do it, but my hope always is that the take-away from conversations like this one is, hit report.

 

[EveHarrington]

I find the discussion of intent to completely side step the point of this thread.

Honestly, I could negate each and every point in the first post with the discussion of intent.

In the end, intent doesn't matter if you're engaging in behaviours that aren't suitable for chat and end up having a negative effect on the community.

I understand that some people are afraid of the ER. That isn't an excuse for putting an emotional burden on others in chat. (i.e. I can't breathe very well and I rather die than go to the ER. Can't quote exactly but this was said in chat that night.) What's next? Do we segregate those who are afraid of the ER from those who aren't, excusing the behaviour from the former while admonishing the latter? No. You simply can't.

Similarly the issue of manipulation. Intent doesn't matter, the behavior does. We can't excuse manipulative behavior simply because someone doesn't know they're being manipulative. It's a bit counterproductive. Those who don't know they are being manipulative need to have this behaviour pointed out to them or they aren't going to ever realize that the behaviour is manipulative and sure as anything aren't going to change.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that the guidelines----rather rules in the first post need to be followed. Introducing the issue of intent will lead to chaos and unfair/uneven application of the rules/consequences. (I don't see mods doing this, but there does seem to be sentiment from the community along these lines.)

 

[joeylittle]

In the end, intent doesn't matter if you're engaging in behaviours that aren't suitable for chat and end up having a negative effect on the community.

This is correct, in that intent isn't relevant - only behavior is.

However, it is relevant that everyone on this site either suffers from or lives in close proximity to a mental illness. So, the behaviors we expect to see are informed by our understanding of what that is.

Those who don't know they are being manipulative need to have this behaviour pointed out to them or they aren't going to ever realize that the behaviour is manipulative and sure as anything aren't going to change.

Sure. But whether or not they choose to change their behavior is up to them, not you, and not the staff. Whether or not the behavior is of sufficient degree as to warrant corrective action, that's up to the staff. And what you need/want to do in order to take care of your own mental health, that's something that we support and encourage you (and all members) in.

I understand that some people are afraid of the ER. That isn't an excuse for putting an emotional burden on others in chat.

Correct. The only point that is important, here, is that we draw the line of 'emotional burden' firmly at attacking and suicidal posting.

There are going to be things on the forum that make others uncomfortable. That's the nature of the beast, here. It's always appropriate to report, if you think something is verging near or crossing a line, regarding suicidal posting or attacking. And then, it's best to do what you need to do to keep yourself stable and sound.

I believe that is the upshot of this conversation.

 

[EveHarrington]

I actually regret saying anything because of the firestorm I've created. (In my perception.)

Bowing out respectfully and avoiding any conflict in the future.

 

[Ed Norton]

I saw a sick baby...nothing I can do... I do not know the problem ..I cant know..seems nobody important knows..I'm am not important and the important people are dumb..I dont know what happened...I was in a tizzy worse than NY center in bad weather... I'm ok now

If people don't do what needs to be done..simple just say I am not a doctor! I say it all the time..it is the truth

 

[Ed Norton]

Funny it made me a huge clown but so did worldwide nuclear holocaust and k k k lynchings oh and hundreds ..at least...burned to death in the bronx

 

[Ed Norton]

But use whatever means necessary and I mean any measures available to stop small children from playing with matches it is the cause of all of the above..and 911 ..and everyone here with PTSD's trauma

I played with matches and my mother and grandma knew and didn't stop me luckily I am one of few survivors and now I have PTSD..they should have kept matches out of the house locked in secure storage magazines with BATF approved locks but N a n u was too concerned with fixing dinner to care that I was playing with matches people like her have killed millions...my mothers food is the reason I may actually have complex trauma.. two valid criteria A traumas

Matches Are Very Dangerous...should be a federal offense to posses them without a licence, training and proper PPE



NEVER PLAY WITH MATCHES!!!! sorry I know this is an issue for my trauma diary

 

[lostforgottensoul]

@Ed Norton what?

This stupid smilie wont erase so here, you have a wink;)

 

[shimmerz]

You are right, @Ed Norton, parents should not allow children access to matches or lighters. I wish you had been kept safe from that. :hug:'s to you, my friend. I am so very happy you are safe now.

 

[Ed Norton]

Yes Shimmerz they need to be kept safe from the how boring that gets..I mean once you see that even lighting the whole box with napkins on the stove doesn't do very much then you need to upgrade them to fireworks

I actually can be very dangerous with matches even one depending on my the device at then end of the touch paper or visco fuse but in the absence of a firecracker which I just light in my hands any way ..if you gave me enough boxes of matches I can be EXTREMELY dangerous with just matches...just strike a match and let go

I know that they must be smelt the smoke...but still ignored in my play
.. .lighters were once child proof but a spy leaked how to use them..adults hated those more..we all just broke that stupid plastic tab off..Lighter though can also be made dangerous but I used to make phosgene gas as a byproduct of several inorganic synthesis the teacher just said be care ful they use it as war gas but still no matches in that lab EVER!!!!


I will not discuss my current use of napkins but socks are better but the best is an old towel that you dont use too much...classified information


:hug: Shimmerz

 

[Ed Norton]

the :hug: was missing in the above post..somehow ..

so :hug:s to those who want or need one

 

[joeylittle]

@Ed Norton - please let the thread stay on-topic to chat room issues; your post about not being a doctor is on-point, I don't make the connection through the rest of it.

(no need to demonstrate the connection, either - merely requesting we stay on-topic, thanks).