News Can A Suvivor Be Asked Not To Forgive? (eva Kor)

[Recovery4Me]

Saying "they are monsters" makes it way to easy... because it moves this kind of violence out of the realm of normal human behaviour... and it is not.

This type of atrocity, known as genocide has been deemed criminal and outside of the realm of 'normal' human behavior.

The point is: The persons who did this were human being just like us which means that we under certain circumstances might act just like this.

No...I am not part of that 'we' nor was that part of my family that fled Germany in order not to do so.

 

[StarChild]

Otherwise it's akin to telling people how to think and feel, which is probably the type of thinking that contributed to the holocaust in the first place.

Bingo!

but if he or she can be asked NOT not forgive.

I find this whole thing rather strange... has the term "asked" in your question the same meaning as "demanded"? (At least to me it sounds like it would.) Well, people can ask or demand a lot of (stupid) things. - But that doesn't mean one has to give in to their asking. As soon as others start to ask / demand a certain kind of behaviour or in this case even thinking from another person, it is also a dictatorship (same urge to control others thinking respectively their acting). That's hilarious to me! "Hey, you survived the holocaust too, so we expect you to not forgive those monsters of the concentration camps, who tortured and abused you and others! No, we'd rather want you to hate all those F*ckers the same as we do!" And that's bullshit IMHO... Because right from the moment of asking /demanding a certain thinking style or behaviour from someone, the canvas are set to sail straight into another dictation.

Eva Kor declared on court that "My forgiveness does not absolve the perpetrators (from their guilt). She called her forgiveness an "act of self-healing and self-liberation". And that's what it all is really about; To achieve inner peace and inner liberation.- And yes, even amongst survivors, there are people who don't want her doing it. They don't want her to achieve inner peace. In the manner of "How dare you to forgive, and even to recuperate inner peace? Yep, even amongst victims there are those, who don't like it, that someone makes peace with their former tormentor, or even dares to be at peace with the past. That's at least my personal take on this strange subject.

And by the way, my fathers' mother was a Jew in Nazy Germany, where he grew up. That made him a "half-jew" as the Nazis, obsessed with their racial fanaticism, called it. - The only reason he survived, was that he fled Germany during the mid thirties. If his mother hadn't insisted, that they (some of her offspring) had to immediately leave the country, he would have shared the same fate as millions of Jews. He never ever talked about it. He never even mentioned that he had Jewish ancestors. Never! He kept his secret well hidden. Most of the facts about him, I found out after he passed away during the early eighties of the last century...

 

[shimmerz]

My bio parents were both German. They were young children during WWII. I am certain that they were heavily affected by the war and that 'affectedness' was passed down to me. Future monsters are influenced by monstrous influences. That doesn't excuse it though. So in answer to your question on a micro level (my own), nobody has the right to insist that I do or do not forgive. They are my wounds and I have every right to lick them whatever way I want to. I choose not to forgive. I am completely disinterested in wasting time on 'their issues' when they chose not to care about mine. Others can do what they want.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

Genocide is a pretty "normal" human behaviour and by that I don't mean "good" but it happens all of the time and "normal" people who have families and friends and act normal before it and after it do engage in it - look atr Ruanda, look at Yugoslawia. To say "they are monsters. Happy we are not like this" will not help prevent futher genocide... if anything it will add to it... because if the ones who caused the last genocide were "monsters" why not genocide them in turn? Why not "finish" the monsters? Where will that stop?

No...I am not part of that 'we'

To my mind it is pretty easy to judge other people, who have been brainwashed since childhood and must fear for their lifes and that of their families if they do not follow orders. As far as I know it also wasn't possible to just "flee" from Nazi Germany at a later time.

With that I do not want to excuse what they did but I just want to say that I cannot 100% sure that I would have acted different in their shoes and that we just can say "that individual was pathologic".

Do I say the concentration camp survivors must forgive - no way - but I think that the explanation "Well, they were mosters" or "X percent of Germans are born as monsters" is way to easy.

 

[shimmerz]

Where will that stop?

When this happens

why not genocide them in turn

If someone has to die, then I would prefer it to be the monsters. Stop the gene pool dead in its tracks.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

If someone has to die, then I would prefer it to be the monsters. Stop the gene pool dead in its tracks.

You know, that this exactly is what the Nazis said? "They are monsters, stop the gene pool dead in the tracks"

 

[shimmerz]

that this exactly is what the Nazis said

Oh, no! You aren't going to make that parallel in my head.

Are you saying to me that the Nazi's who burned babies in ovens is a parallel to my saying stop these monsters for good?

@Lemontree , you need to have had genuine experience playing with monsters. They try to make you feel like 'one of them' to stop you from fighting back. That is exactly what that quote is doing - manipulating. Until you have real time experience with monsters, I would be very careful (especially here) in justifying their existence and their reasoning. There is no reason to be burning babies or shooting people in ditches to suffocate amongst corpses.

In my wildest of dreams I could never bring myself to think about this, let alone do it. Do NOT tie me in with them. That is disgusting.

 

[Recovery4Me]

As far as I know it also wasn't possible to just "flee" from Nazi Germany at a later time.

It is often prudent to consider there is more to life then what may be currently absorbed, especially in view of two testimonies of members explaining their German family tree otherwise. #14 & #13.

Perhaps even empathy for the victims' family is a fair trade (along side with your post for the perpetrators actions in question). But to discount the loss or sacrifices of actual members' families that were made (as it is not in alignment with your view) is genocide of total honesty of dialog.

I am out.of.this.thread.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

In my wildest of dreams I could never bring myself to think about this, let alone do it. Do NOT tie me in with them. That is disgusting.

You said "If someone has to die, then I would prefer it to be the monsters. Stop the gene pool dead in its tracks.", wasn't that already thinking about it?

 

[Deleted member 28812]

Familiy members of mine were killed by the Nazis, other were shot by the commies when they tried the flee their countries, other were killed by the Russians and other died when the English bombed their cities. Others were Nazis (not concentration camp wardens, but Wehrmacht soldiers) and commies. One was a Nazi first and killed by them later. All of this happened before my time.

Not sure what you are trying to tell me.

I think I owe those people one thing - to look at history and learn from it not scream "they are monsters, hunt them down". That witch-hunt attitude just breeds genocide to my mind.

 

[shimmerz]

wasn't that already thinking about it?

Stop the tongue in cheek Lemontree. This is serious business. You can owe these people anything you want. I am out as well.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

Wrong with me? Well, what's wrong with you all to support statements like "stop the gene pool dead in the tracks"? Don't you see where this kind of revenge leads? Don't you really see this? I am being dead serious.

BTW my family history is by no means unique. Nearly everybody in my country has both Nazis and opponents of the Nazis and commies and victims of the commies in his bloodline. So what should we do now? Families start genociding themselves to stop it in the tracks?

I am really being serious? I think we deal with that pretty good by looking how this kind of things come to happen.

I have been neither a Nazi nor a commie but then I have been born to late... and you all have been born in a different country... and all I want to say is that while the deeds of some people have been horrible we cannot say what we would have done in their shoes because we never walked a mile in their shoes.