News Can A Suvivor Be Asked Not To Forgive? (eva Kor)

[Deleted member 28812]

If I hated everybody who was a Nazi or a communist/socialist or a Russian or English soldier (including their offspring) there would be hardly anyone who I would not hate... maybe only you guys from the internet because you/your families had the good fortune not to be in Europe at this time.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

Just an explanation because I don't want anybody to think I sympathize with Nazi ideology. I don't. I just do think "monsters" are something from a childrens tale and on this world there are just people who have the potential to act very horrible.

 

[Ronin]

See but talking about stereotypes can be done differently than by victim blaming entire populations, playing a who's-had-it-worse card where people say they're badly effected by it, and basically victim blaming from a position of curiosity about one's position.

Not even starting about the cultural appropriation going on. (What was that line about Rwanda? Oh nevermind, I decided I'm not touching Rwanda & Congo of the mid-late nineties with a 10ft pole for so many reasons.) Don't you ever say genocide is something normal, don't imply it, and don't tell people they're basically overreacting, while we're discussing something as emotionally charged as this. It's not that difficult.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

By normal I did not mean good. Is really nobody getting that I do not defend it but just saying we must be watchful not for it to happen again by realizing we are not so much better then the people back then.

 

[Ronin]

There's one thing not doing the moral high horse.
There's whole another thing telling a board of victims they're just as bad as people who chose to make choices like that.
And there's a whole another thing bringing this to a board where many of us have been perpetrators of monstrous things because choice is voila not black and white.
This isn't theoretical topic, and I'm bowing out of the thread because a, something I feel super strongly about, b, something I'm not willing to tone-police myself about ever, c, it's problematic by default and I think lens through which we view the world simply would be conflicting in presenting the topic.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

I did not tell anybody he was "a bad person", did I? Nobody here is a victim of the Nazis, is he? We are all far to young. Some over here do have family who have been hurt by the Nazis. So have I. So where is my high horse?

I am from the country blighted by the Nazis and the communists after that - so with all due respect the topic is far less theoretical for me than for you. I have all rights in the world to discuss it.

 

[Ronin]

That's assuming rather straight forward view of Nazism as well, and is erasing experiences of people.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

Is there anyone on this board who has first hand experience with the Nazis? I doubt it but the old people I know do and none of them - zero, nada, hates them. They hate their deeds but they feel sorry for the persons caught in the machine, because if they refused orders they would have been killed. I did not even know my opinion was controversial until I posted it here. In school we (grandchildren and greatgrandchildren of Nazis and their victims, children of hardcore socialists and their victims alike) learned about the milgram experiment and about the kind of thinking that causes genocide or political killings.

Experiences? Though I know people who had horrible things happen to them in all honesty I don't know any people in my country who would say "they are just monsters" and it is maybe because in order for our country to live in peace and prosperity we must move on and try to analyze rather than hate.

Other experiences? Did you here of the twelve year olds drafted as soldiers by the Nazis. Would you say those children were monsters? What would you have done in their shoes? So what are they victim? Perp? To my mind they are both and "look at the monster" invalids their experience.

 

[Ronin]

Is there anyone on this board who has first hand experience with the Nazis? I doubt it but the old people I know do and none of them - zero, nada, hates them.

I'm not sure a closed question is genuinely interested in answers, or other viewpoint. It also seems you're assuming the only possible experience with Nazism is that of admitted to and public histories of Nazi Germany. That may well not be the case.

Experiences? Though I know people who had horrible things happen to them in all honesty I don't know any people in my country who would say "they are just monsters" and it is maybe because in order for our country to live in peace and prosperity we must move on and try to analyze rather than hate.

People don't owe who hurt them something like 'analyzing'.
It's not wrong to hate for destroyed lives, generation after generation after generation. It's not wrong to hate someone who took everyone you had away. Let's have some more empathy. I believe multiple previous posters called for it as well.

Other experiences? Did you here of the twelve year olds drafted as soldiers by the Nazis. Would you say those children were monsters? What would you have done in their shoes? So what are they victim? Perp. To my mind they are both and "look at the monster" invalids their experience.

This is just amusing me to be honest that you pose this as, again, hypotheticals. This isn't a 'did you hear of' topic to me, personally. The first people I've served with? Eldest was thirteen years old.

Consider your words and have respect for things beyond the realm of your experience, please. People aren't metaphors or a punchline. We're people.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

you're assuming the only possible experience with Nazism is that of admitted to and public histories of Nazi Germany. That may well not be the case.

If there is anything about Nazis we don't learn in our school I'd be interested to hear. I am serious.
How did Nazis for example destroy lives generation after generation, after generation? They were in power for 12 years as far as I know.

People don't owe who hurt them something like 'analyzing'.

I am happy that the people I know don't care about things like "but I don't owe you that". They don't want to be right but they want future generations to be happy.

The first people I've served with? Eldest was thirteen years old.

Where and when did this happen?

BTW it was not hypothetical. I know persons who were drafted as 12 year old, came home and lived live of compassion and love. Do you want me to scream "you monster" in their face on a daily basis?

 

[Friday]

I'm a monster. Most of the time I'm just fine with that. It is what it is. Sometimes I kick over it. And sometimes it's nice to have a monster on side.

I don't understand what you are saying. Sorry. Could you explain this in other words?

I am a monster.
I have done terrible things.
I have enjoyed doing terrible things.
I can still enjoy doing terrible things.
Whether I enjoy them or hate them, I am willing to do them again. I have done so.
I have not stopped terrible things from happening. For many reasons.
Most of the time I am okay with what I have done, what I am willing to do.
Some things I have done hurt me very much.
Some things I have not done hurt me very much.
While there is willingness, there is also regret.
Sometimes there are terrible things that need doing.
& I am willing to do those things, regardless of whether others are or are not.
& I am not willing to do many things, regardless of whether others do or do not.
& there are worse monsters than me out there.
So it is useful sometimes to have a friendly monster on your side, willing to do those things, and not afraid of other monsters. Whether it hurts me or not. Whether I want to or not. But that doesn't make me not a monster. It just makes me useful. Until I'm not.
But I will always be a monster.

* kick over it = fighting against, lashing out, tantrum, hurting, refuse, stubborn, hurt, angry at, complain, argue against. Pick someone up who doesn't want to be, and they kick (& scream & bite) to either fight against it or to try to get away.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

Well... I don't think you are a monster. I think humans have the potantial to act very bad sometimes... and they have to potential to act very good at other times. They also have the tendency to follow orders and think about them only later.
I am sorry you are feeling like this and I wish there was something you could do to help.

There is lot of research on it.

I really do not enjoy the discussion and think I will leave it.
I am still sort of shocked everybody here seems to be okay with genocide as long as "the right kind of people" (=Germans? Or just Germans who have bloodties to Nazis?) are killed to "stop their gene pool in the tracks" and honestly I am not sure if I will ever feel the same posting here when I have to think that a big porportion of you seems be okay with genocide.