Childhood Do Children Automatically Know What A Good Or Bad Touch Is?

[arfie]

Nope. I believe cultural sexuality -or even natural sexuality- is far more complex than even a teenager can comprehend. Even an adult, for that matter. I child will also be uncomfortable with an immunization shot and being forced to eat carrots, but those are much easier to sort.

One of my great guilts is that I didn't know. I was a superstar at the all-knowing age of 5 and loved having that much power over adults. An awful lot of folks believe that fact that I had no instinctive knowledge of sexual morality is a sign that I am morally defective. The implication still hurts at 60.

 

[katz]

I'm not sure what age your talking about. But, I found a letter--that was wrote by me when I was in grade school. It is clearly in a elementary school level hand writing and grammer type. It is a young girl writing to God, and asking him to help her. It also says that she told her mommy and she doesn't believe her. The note shows that the child (me) knew that something was not right. My friend thinks that I was around 9-10 years old. (My friend is an elementary school teacher.)

 

[Nam]

It's hard for me to answer because my memories are fragmented. I knew it was wrong because it hurt and it didn't matter what I thought, expressed, or did. The helpless feeling is pretty damn horrible and that casts a shadow that all that was involved with it is bad.

I have a feeling you know from other messages besides being told. For example, to always keep covered. The door being closed in the bathroom, etc. Kids that are really young have no idea that nakedness is something that is "wrong" in culture until later in age, after they've been told to cover up. The part that is shameful is when trust is broken, the authority abuses their position to overtake (or to take) a younger/smaller/weaker person. And many times, that trust is tangled up in other relationships that the child wants to keep. It's complicated.

 

[sun seeker]

I wonder if part of it is about the child sensing the adult's intentions. I'm not talking about really extreme cases of sexual abuse here, but those muddy areas where people wonder whether to call it abuse or not. If the adult is using the child in a selfish way to fill their own needs, I do think the child will sense that is wrong. (However, "wrong" usually translates in the child's mind into blaming themselves.) For instance, I disagree with the definition of sexual abuse as unwanted touch, because it doesn't cover situations like a parent grabbing a toddler to keep them from running into the street. The toddler is squirming and protesting trying to get away, but the unwanted touch in that situation is necessary and isn't going to cause long-term damage. On the other hand, touch that makes the child uncomfortable and serves no other purpose than to fill the adult's needs might cross the line into abuse, whether or not it involves touching areas "covered by a bathing suit". I can remember one particular incident from when I was seven that caused me extreme discomfort because it put me in the adult position taking care of an unbalanced adult male who wanted a hug that seemed to go on for hours, and all I knew to do to protest was go limp and wait for him to get tired of it... I know that doesn't quite answer the question you are asking. I'm not sure of the answer myself.

 

[ghotiff]

I think the anwser is "no". My second sexual abuser was about 26. When was 9 I thought we were in a relationship/dating type thing. I remember when I learned that he was a pedophile and that he was doing it to other girls that I felt hurt. The abuse continued until I was 15, for those years I knew.

Maybe my first abuser when I was about 7 changed my self knowledge. I have only fragmented memories of that abuse.

Also "good touch" and "bad touch" are so vague. Some parents kiss their kids, even on the lips, and culturally is accepted and it's a friendly not sexual gesture so it's "good touch".

Grooming occurs where the pedophile takes those "good touches" and ever so slowly expands on them until the child does what they want. It's like the frog who is put in water ...that then is slowly boiled and they don't realize until it's too late. It starts with a friendly seeming touch on the knee...and when the child acclimatizes, they move to the next level...and so on.

 

[Chava]

Kisses and hugs can be a little gray in some areas. But if we're talking about private parts, the cultural and subjective stuff is sort of b.s., right? Kids might not explicitly learn this, but unless they have experienced "bad touch" from an incredibly early age, a "bad touch" can still register as confusing or "off"....because we learn very early that we have certain private areas, we don't run around naked, and nobody else touches us in the private areas except a caretaker giving a bath or changing us (or a doc if there are problems in those areas), which happens in a certain way that doesn't involve sexual actions. As little kids we want to believe that adults can take care of us and we tend to think they know better. But even a youngster who isn't directly told what a 'bad touch' is can pick up on normal social interaction at a very young age and be confused by interactions that happen on a more private level or beyond this norm they see outwardly in their world. None of this is to say they really "know" it's wrong, especially if they are young and a trusted adult is involved, but I believe even little kids without having heard about "bad touch" can feel confused. Bodily confused, confused in their minds...they are forming all sorts of connections and patterns and NO, "bad touch" does not fit unless it happens very early in an almost (sickly) normalized way or there is pervy and confusing grooming involved.

I think cultural stuff should be left out of this....on this level, it's virtually universal unless we are talking about a sick family or other connection.

 

[ghotiff]

I believe even little kids without having heard about "bad touch" can feel confused. Bodily confused, confused in their minds...they are forming all sorts of connections and patterns and NO, "bad touch" does not fit unless it happens very early in an almost (sickly) normalized way or there is pervy and confusing grooming involved.

I agree but I think grooming and a "trusted" adult is mostly involved.

From a child's perspective. If you have just experienced a "bad touch" what do you, or can you do about it.

My concern is that the op is over simplifying the concept that kids "know" it's bad touch and then can do something about it. It's probably just me bringing in my personal issues too much.

 

[Seagreen]

My mother use to pull my pants down and put me over her knee to smack me. She said it was a 'normal' way to discipline naughty children and for the most part I think society would have agreed. I never had any problem accepting that it was just a regular part of growing up. But when I was touched in a sexual way, which I found much less distressing, I was told that it was wrong and I "should have told some one". I actually found having my pants ripped off and being held down and by my mother to be more violating, frightening and degrading than what the paedophile did to me. What makes one abuse and other ok? The intent, the level of acceptance from society I guess. I think kids do sense that something is wrong but they can easily be persuaded to believe otherwise. Or they know it is wrong but are persuaded to keep secrets for their abusers.

 

[Chava]

My concern is that the op is over simplifying the concept that kids "know" it's bad touch and then can do something about it. It's probably just me bringing in my personal issues too much.

I agree. Children in abusive situations are really trapped because they are dependent upon adults and caretakers for their survival....they might understand "bad touch" but block it out in what they need to believe is a "good" relationship, or they don't understand boundaries beyond those modeled by trusted adults and caretakers. So they might suspect something is wrong but not believe it's okay for them to have a boundary, or it's okay for them to be hurt. Here lies loads of shame. Probably other complexities I can't explain. But if the belief is that kids might know what "bad" touch is and that should be enough to prevent it, well yes, that is over-simplistic.

I just don't like the cultural referrals. I don't care if there even is some sick sub-culture where it's "okay" in their minds to molest kids. That's not okay anywhere. I know "bad" and "good" is black and white, but that's how I'm choosing to read this...."bad" touch being molesty-type, touching private parts, or physical harm...culture is irrelevant.

 

[ghotiff]

I just don't like the cultural referrals. I don't care if there even is some sick sub-culture where it's "okay" in their minds to molest kids. That's not okay anywhere.

I understand and agree with you.

 

[Friday]

Nope. Absolutely not. :D

Speaking as a child who changed cultures every 6-12 months (often dramatically: Think Japan, Deep South USA, Middle East, Western Europe) cultural standards were constantly shifting. What's sexual? Is nudity sexual? Not in a lot of the places I grew up. No more sexual than showing your hair or wearing shorts. But I lived in places where showing my hair would be as overtly sexual as going topless in Kansas. Ditto went from a culture that viewed breasts as food for babies, but thighs??? There, topless was normal, and pants or shorts were forbidden. Beyond the actual intent, there are literally hundreds of social cues that we soak up as children (and are repeated thousands of different ways, over, and over, and over). And I had to learn them... fast. Because any deviation from accepted norms gets pounced on by other kids.

Speaking as a parent. :roflmao: Oy vey!!! Kids!!! Did you know parents have to teach toddlers how long to kiss someone for? Watch any young toddler kissing someone and you'll watch people pull away when it's been "too" long (or wet, gross), and ditto encouraging them to "C'mon, a real kiss for ______! You can do it! No. Silly thing! That's just a peck! Good girl! Whoops. No smoosh-mouth. Okay. Stop. That's enough. There we go.". As parents it's the constant instruct from birth onward, and whether you do it intentionally, or reactively. A lot of things are purely reactive. Untangling babies hands from your hair. When you lean backward (aka disapproval) when a kiss is too long, or how many times you read a book with the same level of enthusiasm (and when you start growing, or asking for a different book). Things you don't even notice. Then there are things parents say (How many times do I have to tell you Don't. Ride. The. Dog?!?) they don't even notice are weird anymore, as well as the things you never thought you would have to explain :

((No. We don't eat people. No. Not even people we don't like. No. Especially not people we love. No eating people. Ever. Ever. Ever. No. Not sick people. Not healthy people. No we do not eat people raw, because we don't eat them. No. We don't eat cooked people. Because we don't eat people. Yes. BBQ counts as cooking. So... Right. We also do not BBQ people. Dude. Just because we eat dog in the Philippines , and dogs are considered people here, does not mean that it's okay to eat people. No. Not here or in the Philippines. Yes. There have been cultures that eat people. Dude. Not ours. We don't do it. Ever. Really.<<< I've heard variations of this conversation a dozen or more times over the years in different families all over the world. And then the Donner Party comes along and messes the whole thing up again!))

I tangented off of sex / good vs bad touch... Because, really, it's 10,000 things. Constant flood of information. Both verbal & nonverbal cues, and in every topic imagineable.

 

[Seagreen]

@FridayJones you just made my day.