Relationship Fear of crowds - a questiong

[Freida]

Soooo My sisters and I are getting ready to do our annual Christmas market trip -- and here's what my brain is doing when I think about it...

yes I want to go. But I is such a dangerous environment. There are so many places "bad" things could be hiding. But that is silly because security will be there and there is no active threat. But I want to go because it will be fun. But I won't be able to see the exit because of the crowd. But my supporters will have a great time. But that means I have to watch for the 3 of us --- and I'm already tired thinking about it. But they are looking forward to it. But they don't understand how bad things so quickly. But I don't want to take it away from them. But people will be touching me and bumping into me and I won't be able to see the exit path. But its a fun thing for us to do as a group. But I can't scan the crowd, talk to them, keep my distance from others, watch the exit and keep us safe. But I love to shop and a sister's day out would be a ball. But I might get them killed if I miss something

but but but but but.

Just more of the fun filled world of ptsd.

 

[Never_falter2]

@Freida: What would be your advice. Talk to him again? Would it be helpful for you to discuss this with your sister?

 

[Freida]

That's such a hard question to answer. Talking about it is aggravating and embarrassing. That's what is so frustrating about PTSD. I know that I'm over reacting, so having a discussion about it feels like a waste of time. And it is frustrating that they don't SEE the danger they could be in. I would never want to refer to them as idiots... but. hey. if the shoe fits!

The biggest problem is we can talk until we are blue in the face, but we don't have the same frame of reference. So talking it about feels like I'm speaking Portuguese and they are speaking Chinese and we are all banging our heads against the wall. And that's when I start to get pissy because I'm overwhelmed.

At the same time I know that I have to suck it up some times so they can have fun. I hate it when my issues get in the way of us having fun! But I can't promise them that, because I don't know how I'm going to react. Which adds to my stress....

One suggestion that has worked for us in the past is a bit of pre-planning. Not talking about IF we are going, but talking about what going looks like. It's more action based. Like setting ground rules. So ours are usually....
I can cancel without explanation at any time prior to getting into the car and heading out
They can go without me and I won't fuss
I ride with one of them. I'm a runner when I freak out so I don't want to strand them
I choose the date and time. We usually go early on the last day (less crowds).
I determine the exit strategies before we go in. If I get overwhelmed I'm going to go to (insert place.). Maybe outside the door by the taco stand or over by the parking lot near the Christmas trees.
If I feel like we aren't safe and say we need to go, they will follow me out without questions.
They will tell me if I'm starting to get that look... the fight or flight one.

Hope that helps....

 

[Akhos]

I think thats one of the massive difficulties when supporting someone with PTSD. As a sufferer myself, I can tell when I am being illogical and irrational about a fear. Sometimes I catch it in time and keep it reigned in, but other times, especially if its an unplanned situation, my PTSD brain will win and the irrational fear will just demolish any rational thinking that was there and it will run amok until I stop crying and freaking out. Like @Freida , I need an action plan just as a back up. It gives a safety blanket to fall back on. It would help me personally if someone was there to be able to recognise the signs and instigate the action plan, but alas, its normally just me as the wife doesnt notice.

If I was able to say what I need in a situation, its this and coming from a man, maybe this is how your husband feels but wont ever admit?? - I know that I am being irrational, but sometimes the thoughts are just so strong I have to let them ride out and I am sorry if I hurt you. I dont mean to, nor want to. If I could turn these thoughts off, trust me, I would, Im getting better at recognising them, but they still overpower me. I feel weak, helpless and useless when I am under the control of my PTSD brain. I want to feel normal again, but dont know how to. What I need is to feel safe, to be understood and to not have my fears questioned - I know they are irrational, questioning them makes me feel so much worse. This is how I feel, and how I wished my wife would understand, but alas, she doesnt. (Causes massive issues for us as I feel unsupported and weak)

Most men will never say this, but the reality is, our strength and sense of being and reality is magnified by a good woman around us even if sometimes we push away. A good woman makes us the man we want to be

 

[Never_falter2]

So, would you like your wife to tell you that you are right to be afraid????
To be honest I do feel uncomfortable in crowds. Being with a man who struggles with crowds contributed to that. I am afraid of terrorism too. So I get his fears and I told him that.
It‘s just I think we are safe at this place because there are concrete blocks and there is a lot of security... and we cannot hide in our home, can we?

 

[Akhos]

I think you are doing what you can and you are trying to understand. PTSD, for me at least, will go to worst case scenario even if its unrealistic and irrational.

And no, i dont think you should hide in your house. Thats no way to live. I feel guilty when my fears impact on others having a good time so for me, its therefore easier to just not socialise. The reality is that death can happen at any time.

 

[Freida]

It‘s just I think we are safe at this place because

ahhhh....and there you have it. I'm not sure you quite grasp this --- There Is Never Anywhere Safe. I'm not safe in my own home. I'm not safe at work. I'm not safe with my friends. I'm not safe in a big crowded event. The ONLY place I feel safe is in my car, because I can hit the gas and go.

I don't mean that to sound snarky, but there is no way you can understand those fears because, like @Akhos said, it's irrational and illogical and a huge pain in the ass. PTSD happens when someone survives something that is so horrible that it re-wires their brain into constant fight or flight mode. I know how bad things can get so when you say we will be safe ....sure. tell yourself that. I know differently

At the same time I KNOW that sitting here, on my couch, in my home, in my little town where nothing every happens should feel safe. But it doesn't. It's not a rational process. It's like a constant alarm bell in your head that never shuts off.

I know how frustrating it is to those around me -- and most of the time I try to suck it up and go out because I refuse to hide in my house and let life pass me by. I've been doing that for years, and I'm good at it. But I ALWAYS have a back up plan. (I actually have several of them that range from a short trip to the store to leaving the country.)

This might be a good place to start the conversation. Help him create a back up plan that protects both of you in a crowd. Be an active part of the process to help him alleviate his fears rather than trying to talk him out of it. Don't try to convince him things wont happen. Ask how you should get out of the area if something goes south. Facing it with a plan may (may) help him feel more comfortable.

 

[Akhos]

@Freida very well put indeed. My head logically knows im safe but logic doesnt come into the equation when its fuelled by the irrational.

Best way i can explain it is imagine putting your hand on a hot plate. Instinctively without thinking, you will remove yr hand before you register just how hot it is right? Thats my ptsd brain. It will react without thinking until afterwards whether or not a threat was real because at that moment in time, the threat is real TO ME. The fear is very real TO ME. Wether it is real or not to anyone else is irrelevant. Its real TO ME and i go into automatic lets get the hell out of here mode. Only once I have calmed down will my body allow me to assess it but until then, i have very little control.

@Never_falter its hard to explain. Its like trying to explain what its like to have kids to people who dont have them. They will nod in accordance to any stereotypes they have heard but the reality is that they wont ever understand really until they have their own.

Im crying as i write this. Why? Because we had guests around for 5 hours. Logically they werent a threat, i know this but my brain is exhausted. Mentally, emotionally and physically. My body aches like ive been at the gym all day long. Why? Because my brain was constantly assessing for threats. Escape routes out of my own house. Weapons to use in case it went wrong. Ensuring my kids were safe. Constantly analysing hundreds of fears for all that time. Just in case.

Rational? Of course not. But its not possible to rationalise irrational fears

 

[Freida]

@Akhos those are fabulous examples and I'm stealing them for my peeps at home!

@Never_falter What do you think about sharing those two examples with your sufferer and asking what kind of exit plan you both could build? That takes it out of the irrational fear realm and into the active realm.

 

[Akhos]

@Never_falter - I say this in the nicest possible way, but rather than trying to understand his reactions in the heat of the moment, because I guarentee he wont be understanding them himself, how about just accepting that the fear to HIM is very real and very scary. The way I describe it to people is this: Close your eyes, and think of a time when you were absolutely petrified, absolutely stone cold scared that you were in immediate danger. Everyone has an example even if you go back to when you were a kid. This is how it affects a person when they get an attack, it triggers that "My life is in very real and immediate threat". Were you able to communicate or rationalise correctly when you were in that state of pure panic?

In the nicest way I can say this, and please do not get offended, rather than trying to understand it, just accept it for the moment, remove him from the situation. What I would like to hear from my wife (and I dont hear this, but I would) is, lets go. Dont ask him if he is ok, because chances are, being a man, he will say yes, even if he is petrified. Take control, remove him, let him calm down, give him a hug, make him feel safe in your arms and just let him know you are there. Just because he isnt telling you doesnt mean he doesnt want to, its more likely that he doesnt know himself. It is a paralysing sensation, it really is. A simple hand on his chest, or a gentle touch on his head or whatever it is that YOU know calms him, do that, without questioning why he feels the way he does, because he probably doesnt know himself at that moment in time.

 

[Never_falter2]

@Akhos: I am sorry to hear you cried. Is it better now?
Does your wife know that „let‘s go“ is what you want to hear?

Leaving if my husband wants us to leave is very much okay with me. I do not have to „remove him“ from the situation though because he will remove me and the kids if he feels it is dangerous... but I will be nice and comply and not talk back at him so to speak.

@Freida: a backup plan sounds like a great idea... but you know, I am not sure if I want to talk about this event with him right now, only if he does not imply how naive I am again.

 

[Akhos]

She does yes but she doesnt notice if im struggling. Our marriage isnt the best however