Guilt And Forgiveness

[Steph_F]

I guess anything that starts with "I wasn't sure where to put this" goes in here, hey? :)

So ResilientGirl (love the name, btw) said this:

Hi Steph, I agree it is heart breaking. However, getting an understanding of guilt and forgiveness from a Veterans perspective maybe tricky, it seems to be a very sensitive area. I've heard it said that if you weren't there you could never understand and I think it would be one of, if not the most painful things to talk about. It's def a no go area with my hubby.

I agree with her 100%! I think it can be a very touchy subject and if no one wants to talk about it, that's ok too. That's a nice thing about this place, I think because we can hide behind the screen, we can be real with each other.

I would never ask any Vet (including my solider) straight out "why do you feel guilty?" or "what did you do to make you feel guilty?". However that is because I have been let in to his world. For a lot of people it may be an innocent question. They may say "don't feel guilty, be proud of what you did" or "you were just doing your job". I doubt that alone absolves a Vet’s guilt.

Forgiveness, in my opinion, is one of the BEST gifts to give yourself, and like most things that you extend to others, a helping hand, or a word of advice, it's best to give yourself a good solid dosage first. We are all worth it. We are all worth forgiving ourselves for things that we have done that we feel badly for. I truly believe this.

That being said, I have never been in combat, never worn the same uniform as those that have killed and I have never taken anyone's life, I have never seen anyone killed. Maybe I am full of shit, I don't know.

I am so far from perfect, I have done things to people, taken things from people and caused serious damage and hurt to people that I love. (Also as a very young girl I killed my cousin's cat...by accident, but still, they liked that cat).

...and I am rambling and am going to be late for soccer practice...

Anyway, if anyone wants to post anything about guilt and forgiveness, please do. I'm not trying to pry or be intrusive or insensitive, but if there is something that you might want to get off your chest, please do...every post helps someone somehow.

 

[BV101]

comrade, I put mine in the helplessness bit. And I had a go at it, but its a bit difficult. Its still difficult for me to really get to grips with. I spend far far too much time on youtube watching stuff that props up the terrible stuff in my head. Which is basically, "Kamerad, you are a bad bad man. And Alija would not be proud of you and you will have to face this at the end of your life".
The thing with this is its not only self destructive. If it only smashed me that would be fine. But I cannot have a nice life. I cannot have a nice time. And the people who get that in the neck are my family. Many times it is the moment life is going well, I bring everything down. Be it that time I whacked child number 1, or made my wife cry by telling her how shit she was, or just cooking food and then throwing it in the bin. Its not flashback stuff, but its just that self hatred and desire to ruin everything.
I hated my war. I hated every minute of it. I was shit scared every day and said "i don't want to die. Please, I don't want to die" to myself a lot. And I am so upset that I wasn't like John Wayne or something. I am so ashamed about that. I feel like a total failure.
This probably makes as much sense as my last thread on this. Its not easy to talk about, but I hope it makes a bit of sense at least?

 

[Mockingbird13]

Sometimes I feel forgivness is easy...its forgetting thats tough. I mean you think you can handle things better- gosh you're even smiling and then WHAM - a smell, a song, a sound just brings it all back.. You know the theory 2 steps forward 3 steps back..... so so frustrating.

Alan - You are by far not a failure... so much has failed you - you did not fail them - Its ok to hate the war - the situation - all of it, and as strange as this sounds - with every post that you vent at - get it out... you are not judged here. SO many can relate to you, and I beleive that no one here thinks lesser of you. You have kept so much in, its time to get it out here among friends that will support you. And hey dont worry about making sense... somehow we can put it together. With that said I will restate - You are not a failure !!

 

[Ted Moen]

stuff happens ... someone else dies, you don't ... sometimes you make promises ... sometimes you aren't paying attention to something you might have been paying attention to ... sometimes you're just not a very good person ... causing others to get hurt ... killed ... sometimes it's so frustrating you do stuff to distract yourself ... inappropriate stuff a good person wouldn't do ... and now someone you care about and you want to think well of you and care for you too wants to know what makes you feel so guilty ...

i tried to get myself kicked out of the inpatient program at the national center for ptsd rather than go there.

i don't usually tell war stories.

i had to, to set the stage for forgiveness, self-forgiveness, positive self-esteem development.

i had to share the stories with my wife ... fortunately for me they had a very good family therapist to assist me through the process ... i was with the therapist talking with my wife by batphone (speakerphone).

my wife was very supportive ... which motivated me to continue the therapudic process

i don't know if i could have ever told her what i needed to tell her face to face, without the assistance of an experienced clinical psychologist specialized in family therapy and combat veterans.

Ted

 

[Jimmy1]

So nobody gets their nickers in a knot, this is just my opinion. lol.

Ted, thats the problem with a lot of Veterans, especially the ones from your era.
Todays war is front page news, there is no hiding. People can walk down the street and be asked if they were 'Over There' meaning the sand box and its ok. People are saying you are doing a great job.

Its the wars that are not talked about that veterans have hidden from, therefor its harder for them to deal with their grief, their guilt. I watched my father and grandfather who both served in WWII dies with their guilt on their chest.
They never talked about it. I only recently learned that my grandfather during an air raid over Darwin, dived out of his fox hole to grab a bloke who had his leg blown off and dived back in. And though nothing of it.

Usually you won't find many people on this site that will talk about their traumas. Most of that is done behind closed doors with someone you can trust. That is how you can also tell whether they are a combat veteran or not.
A lot of PTSD sufferers once they are diagnosed will openly talk about what caused it. Where has military personnel, who have seen conflict learned to suck it up, harden up, build a bridge, and get over it. That is why they don't talk about it. Its also the social stigma and once the stigma within the military. When I was first diagnosed I was shunted to a reserve unit and left alone. I discharge with 20 years under my belt and not even a good bye on discharge day.
I occasionally talk about some things which happen to be on my mind. They are usually traumas that I have dealt with, but maybe have not dealt with totally. I jot them down and talk to my therapist the next time I see her.

I am still meeting veterans of Vietnam today who are just starting to come out of the woodwork and get help for their PTSD they have been carrying around for 30 years. And it has taken its toll.
We over here are also just getting battle honors recognised by the government from the Vietnam era.

So I take my hat off to you and every other veteran of wars that were so long ago

 

[BV101]

I think you are right there Jimmy. Which is an odd thing in itself. But sucking all this up from wars back in the day... That takes some grit it really does. When I am back in my happy motherland, its like a relief. Everybody went through it as it was a very close up direct thing. So everybody knows. Nobody wants to talk about it but everybody does. But its still a very personal thing.
I've made a right balls up of this thread by not really being able to explain it properly. But I explain more to you lot here than I do to my mental doctor. I have still not directly confronted her with my "big war mental scrapbook." Oh this has all gone bold. Don't know why. Lets plough on. I think not telling my parents or direct family that I went out there and joined up was a mistake on reflection and that adds to the guilt stuff. I wish I had done that tbh. They just think I am a miserable bastard.

hhhmmm, this really hasn't been clear at all. My grandad fought in spain in the 1930's and he and I talked a bit about stuff before he died. When I first joined this site I asked if people could see this on you, and the answer was no. But I think other people who have been through the mill a bit can. I still talk to him a lot, usually out loud and usually when I am very low. Without him and you lot on here, I am not sure where I would be.

This has not made sense again. Jimmy manages to just get things to flow and I read it and think... KAPOW! Thats it! But mine often don't even make sense to me and I'm writing them.

 

[Mockingbird13]

Alan - there is no time line that you have to meet - you've gotta do this all in your own way, in your own time. And hey, who cares if it doesn't makes sense at first - even you said it - there are enough folks here that can completely understand your point or at least sort out the puzzle pieces you set out.

It does hurt to see you beat yourself up the way you do. - I understand the reasons you do, but nonetheless you dont deserve that at all. Hang in there... we are here for you !

 

[BV101]

my main worry right now is:
a) why I did that bit in bold
b) where my tea cup is

as you can see, its another tough day!

 

[Jimmy1]

Talk about freaked out. I actually understood where you are coming from.
But if I can understand you and everyone else can understand you, then your f*cked. lmao
There is a saying though, practice what you preach, well I am no good in the least way about that. I can give my opinion on here and yet not stick to it in my life. I suppose its like a plumber having a leaky tap, or faucet .

When I did my first day of the PTSD course I did in 07, we all went around the room introducing each other. Ages varied, operations varied, and corp, mustering, trade etc varied.
Afterwards we all agreed that we looked at each other and said to ourselves that we did not deserve to be there.
At the end of the first lesson, we just shook our heads and agreed that if everything else was different, having Combat related PTSD is the same. Hope your understanding me here.
The biggest difference I suppose was that we were all at different stages of our therapy.
Londonacquisition has been banned. He is a veteran, he has been in combat with the US in Iraq, but he was not at a rational enough stage to trust anyone or anything. I used to be like that too.
He can come back later when his medication is working and he realises that he is not being watched everywhere.

And lastly what we learned was that we will all deal with our trauma at different times. Some people just wake up in the middle of the night and want to talk. So for the partners/spouses/supporters, don't say anything and just listen. Even if he/her is not making sense.

Jimmy

 

[Steph_F]

I like listening...the best friends in the world are also the best listeners. One of the few things that I really like about myself is that I think I am a good friend. I read somewhere about the "ministry of presence" (maybe something Anthony wrote, I don't know) but it made SO much sense, but it's really hard for me to do. It's where a supporter/carer helps a trauma victim (including PTSD sufferers) just by being present. Not talking, asking questions, touching, offering to help but just by being around the person going through a rough time.

So please, just keep talking!! To the right person you will make perfect sense, and sometimes that "right person" is yourself! And we are all worth understanding ourselves! :)

 

[Fargo1]

Alan,

Your post made sense to me. What I have realized since starting this new road is that I just have to talk about my experiences. It is damn hard. My therapist yesterday told me that this particular bit would seem strange, but could she talk to that part of my personality that was holding back. I said sure, lets give it a shot. She started talking, and immediately I was hard, Jaw set, Steely eyed, Fists clenched. Clearly I did not want to go there. But she kept on. I got harder. Then she changed it up and asked me to remember one good experience during my service. I softened up, started telling the story, but about halfway in I got scared again. Hardened up. Got really pissed off. Then we stopped and she spent the next hour trying to calm me down. I was able to get calmed down. But I was wiped out for the entire rest of the day. It was weird to experience.

Interestingly, as I went back to work, two people that I am consulting with made a comment. "You seem more present today." How does that work? I don't feel more present. I feel like a leaf floating in the breeze. Totally out of control. Not anchored.

As to why you made part of your post bold...here are my thoughts: That is the part that is important to you to try to get across to others, but most importantly to yourself.

As I have read your posts, I have noticed something (please don't take offense, it is just my observation) you start many of them apologizing. Sometimes because you feel that they are not making sense, sometimes because someone might take offense (yes I know I just did the same thing). I for one do not take offense. Maybe it is because I am suffering the same feelings. Maybe it is because we share the common bond of being combat vets. Maybe it is just because we are both human beings, and as human beings we really want to connect with other human beings. We want people to listen to us, not just listen to the words, but to hear and understand the feelings behind the words regardless of how well they are expressed. I think that we have some of our breakdowns when the people we are talking to either aren't present in the conversation or we THINK that they are not present in the conversation.

What I have noticed in this forum it that all of the people here, vets and supporters alike, are present in the conversations. It has been a huge help to me. I hope I have, and can continue to be a help to others. As Jimmy said, sometimes it is difficult to practice what you preach. Some days it is downright impossible.

I think I am starting to ramble so I will close with this:
Alan, keep it up brother. I am listening. I get the feelings behind your words. It comes across clear as a bell.

Fargo

 

[BV101]

Fargo, I get what you mean but the bold stuff just happened. I pressed a key by accident and couldn't get it off. The B thing was selected either. Make of that what you will. The sorry thing, well I don't knwo why I want to do it. You've all got your own problems here, and I feel bad about not being able to keep stuff in. So I genuinely am sorry about it all. But I really don't have anyone to talk to. I opened a box up to a mate of mine as he asked. Big mistake. Its just a wierd thing. I feel I need to just scream at people and say, look, look at this f*cking mess I had to go through, then part of me thinks, well people don't want to know. And I get that you guys who were in a real armed forces or whatever had that kind of Chopper Read mentality and don't speak about it, but without you lot on here, it would be all down hill. And I have forgotten me f*cking skis.

Bugger. I think I might have a bit of a cry in a minute.

I think part of all this is I genuinely feel terrible about where we all went in that country. How do you go from winter olympics 1984, to horror movie 1994? I think part of my problem is like this:

1) I have a load of stuff ingested into myself that I go over in my head, just to try and understand. Not flashbacks, just trying to make sense of. I've still not really moved that goal on much.
2) The normal stuff we all have, things going through our heads so close its almost there. I go up and down with that.
3) The whole self hatred of myself. I just feel like total dirt most of the time. I've let so so so many people down. Of course I haven't, but in the real life that rattles around my head I have.

Getting back to the thread for me its not just about 1 level. I feel guilty for myself, for making my wife cry, for whacking the kid, for being alive, for stuff, for breathing, the whole shebang. I am so far away from forgiveness I can't even see it. I was saying to Jan about it. Our war was so hard. So tiring all the time. You couldn't get away from it. I just let terrible things happen without even saying "hey come on this is wrong". I just stood there watching it. I'm going to stop now, because this is a bit too much and I am getting a bit upset.

Bugger.