Guilting Someone Into Not Suiciding! What Are Your Thoughts?

[Hashi]

EDIT: The "What if you wake up with brain damage and your abusive family is given custody of your helpless, voiceless living corpse?"-argument is always a good one to throw out :D

Well, if I was on the tracks and you said that to me, I'd probably say it right back at you as I took you with me. ;)

 

[freakofnurture]

And they have a right to that care.

I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have been able to give a child the care they need when I was the most depressed and suicidal in my life.

Well, if I was on the tracks and you said that to me, I'd probably say it right back at you as I took you with me. ;)

You can always get unlucky. But yeah, a train is one of the safer (albeit one of the most anti-social) ways to end it.

 

[Tinyflame]

What helped me was finding a good book/ exercises to do- and most of all acknowledging it- recognizing I had it 'planned' if next (and last) coping strategy failed.
Eventually getting the courage to say it (trustworthy good friend/ person), who said I wasn't 'nuts' (-yikes), SI can even be expected, to recognize it and tell it to 'F off' (in different words).

He said the most important part was ultimately I hadn't done it.
PLus he was kind after/ didn't treat me like a horrible person, which is how I felt.
I struggled almost daily for ~2 years.

 

[Tinyflame]

Oh yes, -and said that you have to tell someone.

 

[Lucycat]

I have been told by my GP that I 'must tell someone'. But to me that idea is ludicrous and I said so. When I was so very bad, and felt so worthless I did not want anybody to try and stop me. I had made vague requests for help but without being psychic those I contacted had no idea what I was saying. I was very manipulative and planned the time to end it, and carried out my plan. It failed simply because Rory came home earlier than he had said he would.

And for the first time in 2 years of therapy I finally expressed anger - that I had failed.

I find it incredibly unhelpful the notion that referring to your children helps to stop people from taking their own life. As someone who has been unable to have children infertility is just another reason not to live. I have considered that if the purpose of life is to reproduce then I should have been terminated at birth - just as one might to a useless farm animal. Harsh maybe but a very real feeling.

In the past month I have been treated with dignity and respect. I don't feel I have been judged, although I am nervous about the return to work next month.

I have asked T about having a 'plan'. But he said it is simply the same plan as for any time I am not coping - use the 'safe place', speak with my special 'safe person' ( and she doesn't need to know who she is) about anything - just talking. Talking to Rory and contacting T - by any means- text, phone, email. He doesn't see suicidal feelings as any different than any other inability to cope. I think it helps me to not see it as anything special or different, simply unable to cope at that particular time.

 

[Philippa]

I find it incredibly unhelpful the notion that referring to your children helps to stop people from taking their own life. As someone who has been unable to have children infertility is just another reason not to live. I have considered that if the purpose of life is to reproduce then I should have been terminated at birth - just as one might to a useless farm animal.

I don't know? IS reproducing the purpose of life, for a woman?

I'm a woman, and I am fertile, so I can reproduce, but I don't feel that I HAVE to just because I have a womb and I can. I consider my creative projects to be my 'babies', and decided a long time ago that there are enough kids in the world.

I think as women we are taught that that is out main purpose...to keep the species going. I don't think that is necessarily true though, and worth questioning, if you're up for it? Of course, it is in every animal's nature to want to keep the species going, but I think, as humans, we have many different options for which we can have a purpose in life besides just reproducing...these days especially.

Now if you really WANT kids, and can't have them, then that is a different matter...but to consider yourself without purpose because you can't have them...that seems a little unrealistic in thinking to me? I do get that without kids or animals to look after it can feel like one doesn't have any reason NOT to kill ones self when feeling suicidal, and I have felt this way before when I was suicidal...but I think that is a little different to what you suggested, if I read your words the way you meant them, that is?

I guess I'm just challenging you a little, in a gentle way, to maybe examine these thoughts and beliefs that might be limiting your life in some way and holding you back.

 

[Philippa]

I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have been able to give a child the care they need when I was the most depressed and suicidal in my life.

I definitely wasn't up for that when I was depressed and suicidal. Even when my hormones were raging and I was getting flashes of little boys riding tricycles, or little girls playing on swings in my mind, who looked just like my partners at the time, I knew not to give into those chemicals in my body.

Having kids is not something to be taken so lightly, and even more so if you are prone to depression and suicidal tendencies. It's just not fair to them. Better not to even bring them here if you are going to be in this state for any period of time, and with depressives, like me, it's always hard to predict when the next bout will occur.

 

[Meadowsweet]

I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have been able to give a child the care they need when I was the most depressed and suicidal in my life

Yes, and in that frame of mind, you're not able to deliberate objectively about exercising the right to die (unlike euthanasia due to physical illness).

To be honest, the reason I was impelled to speak up about us having the right to die, is because the depressive voice can be a very persuasive demon. And I'm imagining a person reading this thread.

If I was in the throws of depression, the title of the thread would reinforce the feeling that the world is against because it wants to stop me dying. To read that it was my basic human right to take my own life would further reinforce that the voice of depression telling me to do it, is my best friend.

I try very hard to deny the voice of depression at its mildest, so I think for myself I had to put the argument across that it is selfish and why. Because thats an argument that helps to keep me from sinking to the depths.

 

[Lucycat]

I did desperately want to have children and had years of treatment - including major surgery - without success. I guess I was a traditional little girl always playing with dollies who just expected to have a family of my own. Add into the mix child sex abuse and my first thought when we realised I had a problem was that 'it was all my fault' that I could not have a family.

But now I am old. Too old :p and accept it will never be.

But, bringing it back to suicide - I have seen it written and heard it said that you must 'think of your children'. To me the implication there is that if you don't have children then you are worth less. Less worthy of being saved if you like. Less important to society.

I have a very dear friend, who has chosen not to have children and together we are able to moan about the way society discriminates against those who can't or don't wish to reproduce. Such as having to work the Christmas day shifts so that parents can be with children etc etc. There are numerous examples that I am sure parents are totally oblivious of.

I have found a good and mostly happy life. However I have always struggled to identify a 'purpose' - a reason for being here. I am not religious at all, so that does not help me. My T suggests that my purpose is in being a wife, an Aunt, a (Step) Grandmother, a sister and a nurse. But is that enough ? I have not reached the point yet where I can answer that. It is a work - in -progress!

I am at risk of this being 'off topic' and I don't want that to happen.

I guess we all need to have a reason to be alive, but most people will never have thought about it unless they have been considering the alternative.

 

[freakofnurture]

I have been told by my GP that I 'must tell someone'. But to me that idea is ludicrous and I said so.

If you are able to feel close to others, I guess it might be helpful to talk. Personally, I withdraw when I feel bad. A big, long cuddle from my husband would be helpful, though. Cuddles are always helpful and worth living for.

I don't know? IS reproducing the purpose of life, for a woman?

If it wasn't so off topic I'd start a feminist rant now :D

Let's suffice that I think, every life has the purpose that the person living it is giving it. I don't want to have children, and I wouldn't be fit to have any right now. But I know the desire to create something and see something grow. I fulfill it with my stories, which are one of the many things I label 'worth living for'. Not that I'm capable of this sentiment when I'm down (if it disappears I know I'm really down), but knowing that I can have it when I'm feeling better is a good motivator to sit through the inner shit storm.

I try very hard to deny the voice of depression at its mildest, so I think for myself I had to put the argument across that it is selfish and why. Because thats an argument that helps to keep me from sinking to the depths.

It's good you found a way to deal with the mind-f*ck of depression, and by no means do I want to take it away from you. I'm honestly sorry if my approach even had the most miniscule effect in that direction.

As I said in an earlier post, it's a value judgement that only the person themselves can make; I certainly won't judge you for feeling the way you do, but I'll keep rubbing in the fact that I wouldn't judge you, either, if you felt differently. When it comes to questions of life and death, to me, every person is an island, and building bridges or putting out ferries is completely optional. It's the foundation all our other rights and freedoms are built on; that our life is truly ours.

EDIT:

I guess we all need to have a reason to be alive, but most people will never have thought about it unless they have been considering the alternative.

I don't know. I feel like society pushes the question onto people by telling us how big of a mystery and how important the question of 'The Meaning Of Life' is. I always found that idea silly and frankly, I feel like people are kidding me, and like they are harassing people by sending them on a wild goose chase for some 'Higher Meaning' because 'It Can't Be As Banal As Good Food And Sex'.

'Meaning' and 'reason' are constructs of the human mind. The only source of ideas who can be described by means of these constructs can thus be humans. Since no human 'made' you, meaning they 'created' you with a special purpose in mind, you yourself are the only one left to possibly fill you life with something like 'meaning' and give it a 'reason' for continuing.

Whatever gives you a feeling of 'It's good to be alive' or 'I want to do this again' or 'I'm really enjoying this' is a perfectly good reason. The emotional, moral, humanitarian, ... depth to which you go is up to you. And since your life is yours and only yours, f*ck those who want to judge your raison d'être as being shallow. It only has to please you, and no one else.

Well, that was that for a tangent.

 

[Philippa]

If I was in the throws of depression, the title of the thread would reinforce the feeling that the world is against because it wants to stop me dying. To read that it was my basic human right to take my own life would further reinforce that the voice of depression telling me to do it, is my best friend.

I can sort of see that.

I admit I may not have been as careful with the wording of the thread title, but to me I thought I was simply posing the question about whether it is the best way to go about things in this scenario. Actually, there was a part of me that recognized that all during this thread, so thankyou for pointing that out to me, and if the mods wish to re-word it in a way that may not imply that to anyone reading who is suicidal, they are free to.

Perhaps entitling it: "Empathy as an alternative to guilt trips with suicidal people." might have been more sensitive?

??

 

[Philippa]

But, bringing it back to suicide - I have seen it written and heard it said that you must 'think of your children'. To me the implication there is that if you don't have children then you are worth less. Less worthy of being saved if you like. Less important to society.

Ah! I see...yes, that's much clearer, thankyou.

I have a very dear friend, who has chosen not to have children and together we are able to moan about the way society discriminates against those who can't or don't wish to reproduce. Such as having to work the Christmas day shifts so that parents can be with children etc etc. There are numerous examples that I am sure parents are totally oblivious of.

I feel quite lucky that I have not really copped too much discrimination...more just surprise and disbelief from other mothers that I have not already got children. To them it was literally something that never crossed their minds, the option of not having kids!

If I can be so bold, I did detect a hint of jealousy there as the ones I know were not having a good time of it, and really wanted their lives back...weren't getting enough support. F**k that...I had enough of not having enough support when I was going through my hell, without adding motherhood to the mix!

I did have one old man talk to me like I was abnormal once, because he reeeaaally loved kids and he reeeaaallly liked me (he was in his late 70's for goodness sake...*palm to forehead*