General He genuinely doesn't seem to get what he did wrong

[OverandOut]

During a bad fight, my (now ex) boyfriend with combat PTSD and TBI, said he wanted to do something very violent to me. I won't go into the details of what he actually said since it could be triggering to some, but I can tell you that it was very disturbing. Even though he said it to me over the phone and not in person, I still freaked out and almost immediately broke up with him after that.

Months later, he's now trying to talk to me again. He said he's sorry for what he said and that he definitely didn't mean it. For the record, he's never laid a finger on me, although he definitely has some severe anger issues. However, right after saying he was sorry, he pointed out that I said f*cked up things that day too, and who am I to take the moral high ground and claim what he said was worse. I guess I can somewhat see his point, however, I never once talked about wanting to hurt him. Either way, his quasi apology only pissed me off more, and I've since stopped talking to him again.

Now that I'm a little more emotionally detached from it all, I realize he seems to be genuinely confused as to why I pulled the plug and doesn't seem to think what he said was all that bad or at the least didn't merit breaking up since he "didn't mean it" and "people say f*cked up things all the time during a fight." I'm a person who likes to try and understand things if I can, so I guess I'm just wondering can PTSD and/or TBI affect cognitive reasoning like this? Or is he just trying to downplay his actions and manipulate me into taking him back? I know no one can say for sure, but any opinions are welcome!

 

[Survivor3]

Hi @OverandOut, I've said some f*cked up things in the past and I didn't mean them. It was because of stress and mental illness. I think your right to protect yourself and your feelings. In a relationship it's supposed to be a balance between two people to be healthy and happy. If someone is threatening you then that's serious. I can't tell you what to do and can't speak for your partner but I think you have a really good perspective on the situation. If you've decided not to see or speak to him anymore then I think your right and you should be happy with your decision. Find someone that doesn't treat you like that. Best wishes S3.

 

[Sweetpea76]

Hello OverandOut,

Don’t worry about triggering people here... and we don’t do trigger warnings. It’s impossible to know what may or may not trigger somebody, so everybody is ultimately responsible for their own triggers, reactions, and behavior.

Which brings me to this...

Or is he just trying to downplay his actions and manipulate me into taking him back?

I vote this^^^

Sounds like he lashed out verbally, which yes, does happen. Especially with combat vets who tend to fight in fight/flight situations. Guess what though? That’s a bad coping mechanism, not a symptom. He’s still responsible for what comes out of his mouth... yes even if he has PTSD.

Could he genuinely not remember what he said? Sure, especially if he was heated up.

HOWEVER if he threatens physical violence it’s not a big leap to actually laying hands on you. The fact that he’s trying to justify it and blame shift is a bigger red flag.

My vet has combat PTSD and had multiple TBIs. He gets ramped up and rages sometimes. He can lash out verbally... he’s never ever, in almost 8 years, touched a hair on my head in anger. He’s never threatened violence. He’s never even called me a name...Even when he’s lashing out, even when he’s triggered. Because that’s not who he is. He is still who he fundamentally is.

Sometimes abusive assholes get PTSD.

 

[Movingforward10]

I agree with Sweatpea.
He's already minimised what he said to you and then shifted blame saying you said things too. These are red flags.

Why someone says or does something (because we're all assuming it his PTSD that made him say this rather than his personality/anger/view of women/view of violence) does 't matter too much because the fact is they crossed that boundary into that behaviour and that behaviour is what you are left with.

Sounds like you know your own answer to what feels right for you.

 

[Ronin]

And from the other camp... Vet / TBI / PTSD...

Yep. What they all said.
This is not one of those three things talking.

Threatening violence is just on him.
If he truly doesn't get he f*cked up...
That is more reasons to stay faar away. Not less.

His self control and other control issues are not yours to sort. Or even put up with.

Go find someone who'll make you happy. Treat you well. Not just when they feel well, but even and especially when they're low. Who won't even consider putting you in danger - or worse, being the danger themselves.

Plus, nah. People don't say f'd up things all of the time... abusive psychos do.

Someone able to do those things and willing to the same needs to get a f*cking grip. Hurting people who are doing nothing wrong, as he did while threatening you, is not having a grip... and again his problem. Not yours.

 

[OverandOut]

Sorry but I really don't think he's "just an asshole" who got PTSD and neither does anyone who knows him, plus research shows there's a definitive link between TBI and aggressive behavior, but appreciate the input.

PS- I'm genuinely happy for ya'll that you/your partner seem to have your symptoms under such good control, but you can't honestly tell me that no other veteran with PTSD or TBI in this world has ever completely gone off the rails. All you have to do is take a glance through this forum, talk to wives (or ex wives) of veterans, or even just turn on the news. Maybe ya'll are just the golden child for how one with PTSD ought to behave, but unfortunately, that isn't the case for a lot of people, including many who have turned here in search of advice or at the very least maybe some answers. But to just write someone off as "just an asshole..." I think we can do better, honestly.

 

[Sweetpea76]

Maybe ya'll are just the golden child for how one with PTSD ought to behave, but unfortunately, that isn't the case for a lot of people, including many who have turned here in search of advice or at the very least maybe some answers. But to just write someone off as "just an asshole..." I think we can do better, honestly.

No... nobody is a golden child. It’s all a learning curve. Especially reality checks that none of us want to especially hear. A lot of us supporters come here wanting to find a reason to justify bad behaviors. Verbal abuse, threats, physical abuse, and cheating especially, because we love our partners and don’t want to think anything bad about them.... because it cannot be them acting that way. It has to be some kind of force outside themselves doing it. The hard and god’s honest truth is there is zero excuse for it.

I stopped making excuses for crappy behavior and my partner takes personal responsibility for his actions. That’s something that makes our relationship work. The long term supporters on here would all agree. We all had to learn this fact, and it’s a slap in the face when you first get it.

I’ll be the first to tell you my partner can be a huge asshole at times. *He’ll* tell you he’s a huge asshole at times. He’s human, and humans have flaws. He has severe PTSD and has been hospitalized twice in inpatient facilities. He also had a series of TBIs, including 2 mild within a week of each other, and one very high rated moderate non-penetrative one. He is also physically disabled and considered polytrauma. I know all about TBIs and behavior issues. I know about PTSD and behavior issues. I know that TBI and PTSD exacerbate each other. I have been researching and involved in the whole VA medical machine for 8 years now. Him, much, much longer.

I also know that PTSD and TBI cause *feelings* not actions. How somebody reacts to those feelings is totally on them. Nothing seizes control of their body and *makes* them say or do anything. Bad coping mechanisms are not symptoms. Tantrums are not symptoms. They may be how somebody reacts to symptoms, but that is ON THEM.

but you can't honestly tell me that no other veteran with PTSD or TBI in this world has ever completely gone off the rails. All you have to do is take a glance through this forum, talk to wives (or ex wives) of veterans, or even just turn on the news.

A lot of people use PTSD (or TBI) to justify their behavior so they don’t have to change it or work on their issues. A lot of supporters use them to excuse all kinds of crap to save their relationships, becoming extremely codependent in the process. Don’t fall into that trap.

Seriously... hard lesson #1 in the supporter handbook. Don’t use it for a justification. They are not possessed by the devil. They are not body snatched. They aren’t on a remote control.

Statistically, a combat vet with PTSD is no more likely to be violent than any other combat vet. Somebody who wouldn’t beat their wife otherwise would not start beating her just because they have PTSD. Same with the malarkey about vets with combat PTSD going out and committing violent crimes. If somebody wouldn’t do that before, PTSD isn’t going to “make” them. Vets with combat PTSD have this negative stereotype, and it’s sad.

I told you about my partner to make a point. My partner has definitely been a dick to me on several occasions. But he doesn’t threaten me or call me names ever because he thinks violence against women is repugnant. That’s embedded deep in there, and PTSD isn’t going to change that.

I’m the only supporter who responded to this post... the others have PTSD or PTSD/TBI themselves. We honestly do have some experience here.

And nobody called your ex an asshole. I stated:

Sometimes abusive assholes get PTSD.

This was a general statement to think about. Trust me, I would say he specifically was an asshole if that’s what I meant. He may be a fantastic guy. What he did was not fantastic though. It was shit behavior.

If he was seriously sorry he would own what he did. “I said x. That was wrong. I’m ashamed of this behavior and I don’t ever want to do this again.” Not “I don’t remember”, or blame shifting, or dog whistles about something you said.

Being with somebody who has mental issues is not romantic. It’s ugly reality. You have to set those hard boundaries. They have to take accountability. Both of you have to do a lot of work to make it happen.

 

[nursenurse]

It’s called “Uttering a threat” here and is punishable by law. Huge red flags. He did not give you the straight apology that you deserved. Those “But you did...” whatever is an attempt to justify his behaviour. And that is an M.O. that is difficult to break, if not nearly impossible. To me, it says a lot about his character. Nice guys do not threaten bodily harm and plant the blame on the victim. I am with Sweetpea who is a voice of reason, wisdom and tough love. I would not be setting a boundary with threats of physical abuse combined with known anger issues. I would be running in the opposite direction and locking the door behind me. There should be no room for reprieve on that one. I think you were spot on when you asked if perhaps he was trying to manipulate you into taking him back. And good for you for acting decisively when you were threatened, and taking the time to reflect. Don’t get pulled back in. Block him.

 

[Tinyflame]

From what I understand, the 'but' states lack of responsibility for one's own feelings and actions/ behaviours. It actually (technically) botches an apology because it is an attempt at justification, not remorse or repair, and most importantly, not regard for hurting the other's feelings, whether you meant to or not. You don't even have to be in the wrong to apologize, if you feel someone is hurt by your words/ actions/ inactions. Because that's what the repair is about.

I just think someone horrified by what they said, would act (not 'act') horrified by what they said. And if it frightened you, and they trust you're not lying, would take it to heart and be pretty mortified, even if they couldn't remember. Or maybe especially because they couldn't remember.

 

[Justmehere]

It seems like maybe you were looking for input as to if PTSD and TBI changes someone's ability to reason and be rational, is that right? Experiencing someone going from behaving one way, to this behavior of making violent threats is a jarring experience for most people. You mentioned he seems "confused."

One doesn't usually lose a sense of right or wrong because of PTSD or TBI. It doesn't leave someone delusional or disconnected from reality. TBI May be severe enough that someone is unable to engage with reality. It can lead to all kinds of issues in controlling behavior but not the loss of a moral compass. That's something else.

I'm a person who likes to try and understand things if I can, so I guess I'm just wondering can PTSD and/or TBI affect cognitive reasoning like this?

Both can reduce someone's filter. Both can lead to a loss of self control. People with mental health problems of various kinds can end up having violent thoughts and actions. It's a big red flag when someone is making threats of harm. You did the right thing to break up with him. It had to be difficult to do, as you clearly cared about him. Well done.

Many people try to get into the heads of partners with PTSD. Ultimately, you are right that no one can say for sure what his intentions are in his communications with you. Neither condition would cause someone to lose an ability to know threatening someone with violence is wrong. I also doubt he lost that ability, and if he did... yikes!

Sorry but I really don't think he's "just an asshole" who got PTSD and neither does anyone who knows him, plus research shows there's a definitive link between TBI and aggressive behavior, but appreciate the input.

The reality is that people with PTSD are as complex as people without PTSD. We are all a mix of good and bad qualities. To make a threat, give a weak apology for it, and then semi-blame the person threatened is a page out of the abuser's handbook, so you are likely to get strong warnings as you seek input about the situation out of care and concern for your well being. He did likely commit a crime against you. Even you felt cautious about even writing what he said.

If he's had a break from logic and reason, and the ability to know right from wrong, then it's something else.

plus research shows there's a definitive link between TBI and aggressive behavior, but appreciate the input.

I think that's part of your answer.

Here's a hard truth: some people in the world really do believe violence or verbal threats of violence are acceptable ways to solve problems with their partner. Some will refuse to take responsibility for the hurt it causes. It's part of the human condition.

Or is he just trying to downplay his actions and manipulate me into taking him back

I believe this is likely. He could be trying to escape any guilty feelings he has too about his behavior more than he’s trying to take you back.

Are you considering taking him back or just trying to sort out this interaction with him?

 

[Friday]

and who am I to take the moral high ground and claim what he said was worse.

The person whose hard limit was crossed. IE the ONLY person who has the right to decide what they will and will not tolerate in their lives.

If his line is 6 clicks thattaway from your line? That’s cool. It’s his line. His to place. But your line? Is yours to place.

you can't honestly tell me that no other veteran with PTSD or TBI in this world has ever completely gone off the rails

Speaking as a combat vet? Who has mostly dated other combat vets? Of course we do. In a whooooooole lot of different ways. Because people are different. And then you do what YOU did, and decide if the way that particular person goes off the rails is something that you can live with, and accept as a part of your life.

Personally? I’d tell someone who threatened violence against me to f*ck off, just like you did or possibly with a little more vigor, but have a far higher limit for actual violence against me. Why? Two reasons. 1) I don’t date anyone who “says things they don’t mean” when angry. Full stop. I have zip zero nada tolerance for that bullshit. For a lot of reasons, none relevant to this discussion. 2) I have very little problem with someone struggling to control themselves physically, but HUGE problems with someone who gets off on imagining f*cked up shit. <<< Personal preference / my own boundaries.

One of the benefits to dating people -almost exclusively- who have my own brand of crazy? It takes it off the table. Not because we share a disorder, but because I have dated 20 other guys who all have the same disorder, who all react/respond to symptoms differently. Case in point? Everyone is dealing with anger/rage. But how that presents? Depends. On. The. Man. Ditto nightmares, panic attacks, paranoid streaks, depression, all of it. The SYMPTOMS may be roughly the same, but how each individual person deals with those symptoms? Is on them. That’s personality, character, experience, and choices. This disorder? Isn’t a personality disorder, but instead plays off our preexisting personality. Which varies hugely from person to person.

What you’re seeing with this bloke? Is him. His own self, reacting to life, symptoms, you, the whole shebang. If his flavor of anger isn’t one you want in your life? Then it isn’t one you want in your life. And that’s fair.

***
Personally speaking? I’m one of those combat vets that can give other combat vets a bad name. Because when I go off the Rez? I’m picking fights, breaking shit, and killing people. Which ALSO means I’m not letting my happy ass anywhere near anyone I give a shit about. I’m usually a least a continent away, although there are always a few places that unrestrained violence are the orders of the day / perfectly acceptable... I prefer not to shit where I eat. If I wanna go be violent? There are conflicts all over the world that need people willing to be violent. And, nope. I have NEVER hurt anyone who is off-limits, when I’ve decided to let the beast off it’s leash. Meaning, if I’m comin for you? You either deserve it, or have agreed to it. People who are MINE? Mine to love, are mine to protect. You do NOT hurt the people you care about. Rule f*cking 1.

When I want lesser degrees of violence, than ‘raise hell & break shit’? There are countless and endless opportunities to express that. At various deifferent levels. From street fighting / bar brawls (the only way someone is gettin killed is by accident, and softening techniques -eyes, throat, goin, joints- are avoided), to heavily ruled/moderated matches (think MMA, Boxing, etc.), to highly controlled sparring & even more controlled roughhousing with friends.

Anyone who dates me? (For more than a minute or 3) Knows I will neeeeeeever come at them, on purpose, and is comfortable with the different tiers of violence in my life. Or we break up. Just like I am comfortable with THEIR baseline & different tiers, or we break up.

So I am soooooooo not coming at this conversation from a standpoint that all violence is wrong, and no vet ever goes off the rails (nor, I think, was anyone else). I am very much coming at the from a stance of you, yourself, and only you have the right to decide what kinds of violence, at what levels, you’re willing to accept in your life. As with any other facet of dating.

Dude crossed a hard limit. So you broke up with him. As you should. Or it’s not a hard limit, but a soft one. That’s all there is to it, IMO.

Whether or not he understands, or agrees, or is even able to understand? All beside the point.

 

[joeylittle]

can PTSD and/or TBI affect cognitive reasoning like this?

TBI, yes. Depending on all the details around the injury, one can expect significant changes in baseline mood, personality, regulation of mood and behavior. In extreme examples, it's possible for someone's behavior to become unrecognizable, to those who knew them before the injury.

The thing to remember is: these changes are not thoroughly understood by the scientific community - but they are generally not observed to be temporary. In other words, a TBI is unlike PTSD in that it can't be treated or managed through any form of cognitive therapy. It's simply the new normal. A person showing significant alteration in self-concept and moral code following a TBI will only shift those things if they (a) decide they want to change, and (b) do the work it takes to manifest that change.

PTSD, on the other hand, is comparatively simple. There are a number of therapies/treatment protocols, and the condition itself is well-documented and well-researched enough so that psychologists and scientists have been able to anticipate various negative coping styles and create tools to address them. PTSD causes all sorts of problems with regulation - but the sufferer can chip away at those, and eventually get to the place where they understand their disorder as a disorder.

The kind of alterations to personality that can occur after TBI - those aren't a disorder, they are the result of a (catastrophic) injury. An analogy could be - if you take a bad fall and compound fracture your arm, you'll (probably) have a long recovery ahead. You may end up with some metal replacing bone, and the limb may not ever be as stable as it was prior to the accident, but you can learn the new limitations and compensate for them. That's PTSD. You take a bad fall into a wood-chipper and part of your arm is chewed off - well, it's just not there anymore. You might end up with a prosthesis, you might be able to opt for some kind of partial reconstruction...but the arm is fundamentally altered, so your functionality is now fundamentally different. That's more like TBI...and if you can add into this scenario that you can't remember at all what it was like to have that arm, before you lost it...that's much closer to the kind of cognitive alteration you're talking about.

So, in a strange way - even if the TBI caused the change in your partner you described...it doesn't matter, because it's who he is now. He would need to accept that it's not just how couples fight. He'd have to genuinely want to understand how what he said to you was wrong, and want to change his behavior.

Now - if the TBI didn't shift his self-concept that significantly....then this is who he was then AND who he is, now. He'd still need to accept that he crossed a line, and he'd need to want to work on not crossing that line again.

Either way, it's the same. And PTSD might be exacerbating the situation, so he'd need to be engaging in treatment/therapy and maintenance...either way.

I don't know if that helps, it's just a different angle on the issue.