I Need Help Finding My Voice

[blackemerald1]

I think we all have different emotional connections to money and things.

^It's not an emotional connection. It's a financial transaction.

A loan is a loan. A gift is a gift. Knowing the difference is important imo.

Forcing a person who has loaned you money or property to ask for it back is not a great way to deal with this type of transaction and it's not an endearing trait.

 

[Cypress]

I meant to say emotional responses to financial transactions vary.

I guess life has taught me not to have strong attachments to things, places or money. So if it's taken away, so be it. If it comes my way, so be it.

I don't understand why it so important to know the difference between a loan and a gift.

Loans can be forgiven and gifts sometimes come with a steep emotional price.

Whenever I give money or things to family, friends and ex's, I always assume it may be a gift, no matter how much they insist they will pay me back. If it's not something I can live without, I don't give.

 

[blackemerald1]

I gave a few dollars to one of my roommates to get me something at the store, but they never did and I would like my money back, but I am unsure of how I should ask for the money without coming off like a jerk. I suppose I don't feel the playing field is equal. I tend to think that I should let it go because it is just a few dollars (making excuses now) and I am not skilled yet at assertive communication and so I take the passive stance (normally) and let it go. Perhaps I am afraid of confrontation.

^The OP circumstance and dilemma is just one of so many variations on financial transactions that it is senseless to try to explain the possible difficulties. But believe me there are a myriad of problems relating to this.

I meant to say emotional responses to financial transactions vary.

^Absolutely agree. Murders, financial abuse, extreme moments of generosity and on it goes. We are human so we are emotional.

life has taught me not to have strong attachments to things, places or money. So if it's taken away, so be it. If it comes my way, so be it.

^Wow. I'm definitely not habitating that camp. :sorry: But well done you for being so blase' about it all. :) :cautious:

I don't understand why it so important to know the difference between a loan and a gift.

^I'm not sure if you meant this as a rhetorical question or you really don't understand why it might be important?

Loans can be forgiven and gifts sometimes come with a steep emotional price.

^Yes. However before either loans or gifts are exchanged between parties, even a discussion about the terms of the loan, the likelihood of it being forgiven etc and in the case of a gift being accepted by the recipient before accepting?

Perhaps coming to an agreement may prevent misunderstandings in the future.

And then communicating the ongoing position of the transaction or re-negotiating seems prudent behaviour. Not simply just forget about it all. :wtf:

Surely you have noticed how many misunderstandings there are about this stuff?

In the OP's case the money was not a loan, it was a transaction, money for goods. That didn't transpire as agreed. It seems the person who then was holding the money might have thought the money was a gift? But Idk - who knows? Still very awkward and could have been avoided by the person who was handed the money giving it back... sigh.....

In most circumstances however Cypress if someone discusses a loan that's exactly what they mean. And if something is borrowed it means it is meant to be returned... and therein lays the dilemma.

I do realise that there seems to be a problem with the concept of loan with a lot of people. That's why I don't loan people property or money. Actually I have neither to give anyway so I'm a bad example. But go with me on this bc I have seen a lot of awkward, tense, arguments or 'discussions' arise from this very issue.

If it's not something I can live without, I don't give.

^Me too - of course. Goes without saying that lending money/property that one cannot live without should never be given away. The oxygen mask circumstance springs to mind there. :)

 

[TruthSeeker]

Sure I've written a lot about this and it's one of the cornerstones or core issues. But I feel better about it now that I see it as a trigger or involuntary response. A condition I have not something about me that's bad. That doesn't mean I like it. I have to avoid people this is one of the main reasons. Asking for the 3 bucks would/might become like life and death. So exhausting.

So I can't advise what to do about it. I know it's there always. I just don't hate myself as much for it.

@blackemerald1 I am one of those people and it is not a social lie. I think we all have different emotional connections to money and things.

I forget when I give other people money or things and am often surprised when they pay me back/give things back. Vice versa, I also forget when people loan me money or things and am surprised that they are upset that I have neglected to repay them.

I understand that for many people money and things are a big deal and if I hear a co-worker or friend talk about money or things in an emotional way, I will ask if borrowed anything that I forgot to give back.

@Mach123 I get this....and used to borrow a lot but I'd forget. What I really think it is is not prioritizing it as high priority on my list of to do's. Borrowing solves a problem faster, but creates another by having to return the borrowed item. It is embarrassing to me for someone to say-you still have my X???? Can you pay me back today? I need it (and then I'm not sure where X is or if it's money, I don't have it that second). This was my easy solution-to just borrow and my problem solved quickly-but it places the solution for my issue at hand on someone else solving it in the moment, not me being prepared with the things in life I need......

Now, I rarely borrow. I know lending is a kindness-the lender doesn't have to help me out. I know that I am responsible for returning other people's things to them-in a timely fashion. Time is not my friend and I'm not as grounded in time as I'd like to be-being in real time is a work in progress. Returning the borrowed item is the price I must pay to the lender, if I choose to borrow. If I can't remember, or don't come up with a system to remember to pay them back in a timely fashion, which has been a past issue,......I just don't. I'd rather be without....then be owing something of someone's and not managing that well. It can lead to hard feelings, people thinking I feel entitled to keeping their stuff, and lots of unnecessary drama. I have found I can buy or make most things I'd borrow anyway and there is lots less hassle in doing it that way. Consider being a person who doesn't borrow....it saves irritation and drama.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I meant to say emotional responses to financial transactions vary.

I guess life has taught me not to have strong attachments to things, places or money. So if it's taken away, so be it. If it comes my way, so be it.

I don't understand why it so important to know the difference between a loan and a gift.

Loans can be forgiven and gifts sometimes come with a steep emotional price.

Whenever I give money or things to family, friends and ex's, I always assume it may be a gift, no matter how much they insist they will pay me back. If it's not something I can live without, I don't give.

@Cypress Gifts-
when someone says "Here, you don't have to pay me back".....and it is a small sum of money.
I hear it as a gift when I hear-a statement that relieves me of my obligation to pay it back.

In all other cases, I assume I am responsible for paying money back or giving an item back if no discussion is had. The amount of money and situation is important too. Someone hands you a couple of bucks and says, go in get me a Coke and yourself a drink too, it is clearly implied as a gift. Someone sends you on an errand and gives you a 1000.00 cash, it's implied the difference is theirs. Someone who cares about you loans you several hundred dollars or more to get you out of a jam-you owe them back because they were helping you and it was their money to begin with.........you should be the one to create an IOU-cause it's a loan......with a date for repayment and terms. Notes keep things clear and prevent drama. Money has boundaries....because we need money to live.....and some of us may have more than others but that doesn't entitle others not to pay us back, if we do them a kindness. I have loaned quite a bit of money to my daughter to get her out of numerous jams-and she never owned the responsibility for paying back.....because she's my daughter, and I have more money than her, she thinks it's all a gift. I had to stop giving as a result.

 

[Cypress]

In most circumstances however Cypress if someone discusses a loan that's exactly what they mean. And if something is borrowed it means it is meant to be returned... and therein lays the dilemma.

I think "most circumstances" depends on your cultural context. I have gifted money or things to people in a jam and called it a loan so that the receiver of the gift could save face even though there was no expectation of repayment. Likewise I have been offered money/items when in need, refused and been told to just borrow it and then when I tried to return it, the giver was offended.

and some of us may have more than others but that doesn't entitle others not to pay us back, if we do them a kindness.

I am going to have to think on my relationship with money. When I have it, I easily give it away to friends or family, I just can't seem to hold on to it. Same with things, if someone says they like something I have, I give it to them. I move a lot, own very few things and just don't have a sense of anything belonging to me. Not sure if this has to do with boundaries or is a dissociation/PTSD problem or is just a way of being.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I used to do the gentleman's agreement thing....then I came to realize everyone didn't abide by such agreements. I came to the conclusion that in my case, it had to do with boundaries. I have that "help everyone" personality and it has caused me great personal disappointment and harm. Daughter has an inheritance from her father who passed on, and she put in some money and myself a few thousand (to be a gift when I died and the whole condo to her). But if she were to resell the house, she had to pay me back my several thousand dollars.....verbal agreement never was written down. I asked her to write down the terms, and she didn't. I asked her several times....she didn't. Years later, she had medical issues, was behind in her payment on the note and I fronted the money to save my own credit (as as the note holder) never got my several thousand dollars back when she sold it to my X husband.......I got an ugly note from her saying that she didn't owe me that money-she decided to come up with a reason several thousand dollars was a gift. Learned my lesson, a loan is given after the paperwork is signed, and gift has no paperwork signed. I guess money can really screw up relationships as well as entitlement attitudes which I see more prevalent from the younger generations. I look back, and I taught her entitlement,
and to expect things as gifts........Mom will fix it. Well, those days are long gone.

 

[blackemerald1]

Well, those days are long gone.

^For me too. Your generosity was abused and that is not good at all. I'm sorry you daughter destroyed your trust. Maybe one day she will understand what she has done.

think "most circumstances" depends on your cultural context. I have gifted money or things to people in a jam and called it a loan so that the receiver of the gift could save face even though there was no expectation of repayment.

I used the term most because I wasn't meaning all however you've concentrated on one example, not the OP's, where you definitely gifted money/property. Lending anything by virtue of the term means something different from gift. But of course, it can change.

In the example you gave about yourself there was no discussion you gave here about the money/property being returned to save face or otherwise and anyway loans can be renegotiated - I've already mentioned that.

Communicating expectations can happen at any time and that's a good thing - don't you agree?

@TruthSeeker made it clear what the terms of her loan/gift were in that the gift became a loan if certain actions were taken by the recipient. One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to see that failure by her daughter to meet those terms have been disruptive to the relationship. And the same has occurred with the OP.

The OP did not gift anyone the money nor loan it. It was passed to another party for a specific purpose which was communicated in that transaction. The other party failed in their obligation and then failed to return the money.

Forgiving a loan for a variety of reasons may be done - of course. But it's not the normal terms or meaning of a loan.

Otherwise it would be a gift. Or maybe it all means something different to you and that is ok, for sure. It seems so.

However I'd be uncomfortable with not knowing if something was indeed a gift or a loan personally but also, that might be my culture. I'm unaware of cultures that give things to people as loans when they not. But I'm prepared to accept there are many cultures I'm not familiar with. :rolleyes:

Go look in the small claims courts, administrative law courts or just google the terms loan and gift. Western culture. I'm fairly sure that is what the OP was operating within.

 

[Cypress]

@TruthSeeker I would like to understand better here how money screws up relationships: were you upset/disappointed/angry that your daughter did not repay you the because you were short on cash and needed the repayment to get by in life or was it that her not paying you signified that she didn't care about you or was unappreciative or some other feeling?

 

[katz]

I tend to just give in. I decided a long, long time ago that I would rather lose then fight. The fighting and yelling in my childhood has taken it's toll on me and I just continue to lose. Anything than to fight or yell.

No one "wins" a yelling contest.

 

[Lionheart]

I tend to just give in. The fighting and yelling in my childhood has taken it's toll on me

@katz Wow!!! I can definitely relate to this and would do well to consider how this influences my tendency to give in rather than to fight. You have given me much to think about and I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Cypress]

I agree. When it comes to money I would definitely rather give it away than fight about it. Can't bear conflict at all.