This Forum Makes Me Feel Even More Alone Sometimes

[Emiwih]

Forgot to add. You are not alone.

 

[Nedege]

someone who dislikes men because they have been sexually assaulted,

Men can't choose to be men. M&P choose to be M&P.

That being said, thank you for your kind words. Thank you for also corroborating police abuse is commonplace.

 

[Ero]

As a kid growing up, me and my bro used to joke, although not funny now looking back

"Help the police to beat yourself up"

Every bloody month there was something about some poor kid dying in custody etc etc... I think it is a big city problem, it was worse in the past, but now people are reporting it, people are taking action. It seems the more power some people have the more it goes to their heads, even worse if they have money but that is a topic for another thread.

 

[Ibe]

I don't spoonfeed trolls

You may want to revisit who you're calling a troll, first and foremost.

I only request the answer to a simple question. You made a statement as though fact, however; the link you provided does not contain the information on that page. Could you please provide the URL for the information, as I simply do not believe your quote that police have a higher rate of committing offences compared to the civilian populous.

I've looked through other data on your first link, and I don't even see that data. Only how many police have been killed or injured per 100,000.

You make a statement, please provide the evidence to substantiate it. Otherwise, don't state information as though it is fact.

 

[Evado]

I agree that some basic self-awareness and a simple google search brings up a lot of police malfeasance. I agree that you're being a stubborn troll putting your head in the sand. (I'm not the OP). Google police brutality. Google Kelly Thomas. Google any of the Occupy police actions against peacefully assembled people. Google Anaheim PD shooting. Look into people who are killed in drug raids who don't have any guns or drugs in their home. You're splitting hairs and in denial, and a little effort on your part could fix that. This is an anonymous rant page, not a factual research study. Do your own homework. Troll. Kthxbai.

 

[Ibe]

I do not disagree that there are instances of brutality and negligence with police and armed services, however; there are also things that most are not aware of either in relation to performing those duties.

America, for instance, has one of the largest illegal arms issues within the world. Police don't get a second chance between someone armed with a weapon and not armed. That means you have to act based on the worst case, not the best case. Violence against police in the first instance is also what heightens training and instruction to be more forceful until the situation is controlled.

There are two sides to a fence. In countries with less armed violence, police use less forceful measures, as they don't have to aim for the worst case as a high likelihood, instead it would be considered a near zero possibility.

To some degree, societies everywhere do control these aspects based on their own actions.

Police don't start beating a protester because they're sitting around. No doubt it has happened, as some absolute insignificant minority, which people grab and confuse as normal. Police would however step-up force if said protester began to kick, punch or otherwise at them when being lifted and removed from a protest. The moment the person increased force, police don't get too match it, they have to control it, and quickly, otherwise things get out of control quickly.

The military are more heightened than police. If you have the military present and armed, you would wish for police, as their role is not citizen control, it is outright domination and control of an area to minimise further issues. This is why militaries are typically not employed in civilian populous, and when they are, it turns very ugly, very quickly.

 

[Vojop]

Police don't start beating a protester because they're sitting around. No doubt it has happened, as some absolute insignificant minority, which people grab and confuse as normal.

Just adding my two cents that The other poster was right. We had in an instance in the states earlier this year on a University campus I believe where peacefully gathered protesters were sitting on the ground and were sprayed with pepper spray in the face by a police officer in order to get them to disperse. This was against their constitutional rights and it sent the nation into an uproar. I'd hardly call that insignificant. No violation of a citizens rights can be called that, not if we want to keep them.

What is with all the trolling on this site recently? This used to be a place for honest discussion, not arguing for the sake of finding a winner.

 

[Ruvupav]

So, the person claiming to be an admin really is an admin, so I won't call him a troll anymore, but I do think he is grievously misinformed and/or kidding himself about life in the US and how our police forces behave towards citizens. It has been escalating for 11 years since 9/11. I also don't get why this one thread is singled out to back up its POV with stats and science, where other more ridiculous claims like "Depression is 100% a choice" get let slide in the non-anon forums, but that's neither here nor there.

This is why militaries are typically not employed in civilian populous, and when they are, it turns very ugly, very quickly.

It already has, and I can only assume you don't live in the US if you think that. (See: War on Terror, War on Drugs.) We have a LOT of militarized police response since 9/11, for everything from legitiamate bomb threats to peaceful protests, and the amount in which the actual military has been used in civilian settings is also on the rise. This is not news to anyone who lives here.

Police don't start beating a protester because they're sitting around. No doubt it has happened, as some absolute insignificant minority, which people grab and confuse as normal.

If this was a domestic abuser situation where a husband "only" beats his wife once a month, we wouldn't let that slide - if we knew about it, which oftentimes we don't. Yet only a tiny fraction of the police brutality is ever answered with any kind of real consequences. Most is swept under the rug, charges not filed, and can't be accounted for, because much like domestic abuse or rape, it's hard to make it stick, there's lots of victim-blaming, and there are many barriers to people speaking up. Again, not news to anyone who lives here.

I hear about some new uncalled for police abuse that results in grievous injury or death at least two or three times every month, and I hardly ever hear of any consequence for the police involved. Oakland Occupy - A marine shot in the face with a tear gas canister. New York Occupy - Tony Bologna spraying women in the face with pepper spray while they were penned in by the NYPD. The UC Davis pepper spray incident. Oscar Grant, shot in the back while handcuffed face down on a BART station floor. Kelly Thomas, beaten to death as he pleaded with the officers to stop. Sean Bell, gunned down on his weddding day. Amadou Diallo, shot 19 times out of 41 bullers. Anaheim PD this summer. The Alabama guy who after being frisked, searched, and handcuffed, reportedly "killed himself" in the back of a squad car. The people who are killed in no-knock drug raids, some of whom didn't even have drugs or weapons (google and you will find). People who are killed before the police identify themselves, as happened to an unarmed guy in my city last year. (He was holding a garden hose spray attachment, they claimed it looked like a gun but didn't give him a chance to disarm himself. No charges were filed against the cops who gunned him down. The list goes on. And on. And on. Again, not news to anyone who lives here and pays attention to the news. (Some people here, in a shocking display of cognitive dissonance, even cheer the police brutality when it happens.)

Here's some statistics and context to put it into perspective: on the criminal justice side, we incarcerate people at six times the rate of nearly every other industrialized nation. We have more prisoners than China. (No, not more prisoners per capita, as a slice of overall population, but more PRISONERS than China, who has 4 times our population.) Only Russia comes close in per capita incarceration rates. The War on (Some) Drugs, mandatory minimum sentences, and the militarized police response after 9/11 have all contributed to this, as well as the prison-industrial complex which rewards enforcement agencies for seizures and arrests and convictions. The privatization of prisons has also slowly turned locking people up into big business. On the military side, we spend over half of all federal tax monies on "Defense", giving us a military budget that is as big as the next 14 nations combined. To me, that's a military-police-prison system that is wayyyy too big for its britches, at all levels.

Meanwhile, our schools and infrastructure and social safety net are gutted as fast as the far-right corporatists can get into power and the gap between rich and the rest of us is the biggest since the 1920s. Leading more people to desperate acts. It is a vicious cycle and it's not even close to done.

It doesn't help that it's way easier to get a gun in this country (even legally) than it is to receive mental health care.

I think the OP is spot on being wary of police and military in this day and age, and anyone who doubts that is probably living a very sheltered life somewhere safe. I'm happy for those people who are so fortunate, but, like many of my countrymen (and women), I will continue to walk on eggshells as soon as police or military are on any given scene (and hope that my rebuttal here doesn't get me banzored from the site.)

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-17-Copmisconduct_N.htm (five years ago, but documents the rise of police brutality post-9/11)
www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/ngos/usa/USHRN15.pdf (emphasis on police brutality upon people of color in the US)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all (out of control prison population)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate (Wikipedia)

 

[Ibe]

I am aware of the US incarceration issue. It is well known outside of the US.

Again, I am not denying incidents as people continue to cling upon, then thrust out as though they are the rule versus the exception within police departments. Do I need to repeat that before you read further?

I will anyway, just for good measure: I am not denying incidents as people continue to cling upon, then thrust out as though they are the rule versus the exception within police departments.

I looked at the first link, and in 5 major US cities there were 42 offences by police that proved negligence. Ok... so how big are the police forces in those major cities? 42 is high, don't get me wrong. 42 though is more than likely less than 0.1% of the police force numbers. Therefore, it is logical that incidents such as those highlighted in the media to sell news, and also where legitimate abuse is present, simply discard the rest of the police force doing the right thing.

Lets put the shoe on the other foot, shall we?

What if police simply stepped back and didn't uphold the laws? What if you were getting held-up and needed police to help you? I guess this ties into some of the deeper issues known in the US which lead into the incarceration issue... which is the amount of lawlessness already present within the US due to how citizens have chosen to have the country structured, which is now also biting citizens in the arse.

And then the merry-go-round we travel, back to freedom to bare arms, and other such freedoms that are just ridiculous, IF you also want to have a lawful country.

If you haven't been in the police or military, then your understanding is well short of the mark in order to do these jobs. I would be quite interested to hear from police who have to deal with the issues... maybe they might put a better perspective on such things for those who are sheltered, who don't have said experience, and who are talking lots without any experience, other than a negative self-application.

 

[Ibe]

where other more ridiculous claims like "Depression is 100% a choice" get let slide in the non-anon forums

I believe there were plenty of people who challenged that discussion... and if memory serves me correctly, it was pointed out to me and I also responded onto it. If it's the one I am thinking about.

There is a lot of misinformation online about depression, just as there is about PTSD. People read blogs and trauma pages and all these sorts of things, then regurgitate that content as though it is fact. Studies and data derive the better factual content, not opinionated or sensationalised webpage content.

People become focused that teen suicide is the highest category, or military, and so forth. It depends based on what the media happen to sensationalise at the given time. The facts are vastly different, and they change per location, per capita. They're influenced by many diverse social, cultural and environmental factors per location.

Studies that have focused on suicide survivors have derived clearly that 99% plus endured depression at the time of trying to kill themselves. Depression is a complicated subject in itself. Sadness, loneliness, grief, disappointment, failure, feeling no other options, etc etc, are all linked into a depressive mood. A person doesn't just kill themselves, because factually the human brain has extremely strong self-preservation instincts built-in. Hence how a person cannot drown themselves unless they use some type of anchor to keep them under. The brain will not allow it.

Ask a survivor of suicide attempt what led them to the attempt, and you will always find some type of depressive mood. They felt betrayed, no way out, picked on, etc etc etc... and if these feelings were present for two weeks, then one could be clinically diagnosed with depression, though the facts are most don't seek treatment.

Every human feels these things, though the majority have social support that lift such moods and feelings quickly, getting us focused and back on track.

Depression is a complicated subject... the means to put a person there are many. Social media, just like this forum, can make a person feel some of the above things, or other negative feelings. Suicide though is not something a person just goes to, it is a culmination of negative feelings that lead them there. It can even be that they're already dying. There is a lot of depressive thoughts and feelings in that, yet then suddenly the person decides to kill them-self and they feel joy, happy, positive feelings that they problem/s are going away.

Again... a very complicated subject with a whole lot of misinformation around the web. Books and journals are far better for information on such matters, with a cross-section of areas within.

 

[Ruvupav]

Again, I am not denying incidents as people continue to cling upon, then thrust out as though they are the rule versus the exception within police departments. Do I need to repeat that before you read further?

It's not that the abuses happen 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10000. You're clouding the issue. It's that hardly any of them result in any serious consequences for the officers involved. At best, there's some cash settlement from the city, and sometimes, very rarely, a short jail sentence. That is the consistent thing in all these abuses cases that irks me. Not the frequency, just the lack of accountability.

I don't care if they have 1000 great incidents and only 1 brutality incident - if that 1 brutality incident doesn't come with serious consequences for the perpetrator, that's giving others in uniform a license to do the same thing. Again, it's like saying a guy who doesn't beat his wife 29 days out of the month but beats her on the 30th day is a 'good husband' and 'just doing what he's supposed to do', and doesn't deserve jail, because after all, he protects her on those other 29 days, right? Asking if I'd rather there not be any cops whatsoever (which I never said, and isn't the point) is deflecting blame and quite frankly abetting those abuses of authority that do occur. Of course it's only a small fraction of all the things that happen in a day. I don't care if a milllion good or neutral incidents happen to every 1 abuse - sweeping those abuses under the rug hurts us all.

Never mind all the incidents that don't get reported, in much the same way that rapes are under-reported because victims are intimidated and shamed into keeping their silence, in much the same way as whistleblowers are hounded and harassed for speaking out against the powers that be - discouraging others from trying to do the same thing. It's a skewed, f*cked-up power dynamic, and I will not, will not ever, cut them any slack for needless violence that has no repercussions or only very mild repurcussions.

People who serve in uniform should be held to a higher standard, period. But they're not, and can thus get away with way more than most criminals, which is part of why despite all our talk about terrorism and homeland security and protecting the people, we're 8 times more likely to die at the hands of a cop than in a terrorist attack in this country.

Tired of arguing with someone who appears to be, by dint of the fact that being a cop is a dangerous job (which they knew when they took the job), enabling and giving a pass to abuse, assault and murder by authority figures, in a manner that typically comes without any consequences for the abuser (which is the norm for any incidents like this that happen). Because, you know, criminals are bad and it's just the thin blue line that keeps it at bay! Using fear tactics to justify brutality and abuse of authority. And then telling a PTSD sufferer who's nervous around cops that they need to talk statistics in order to justify their aversion, which happens on a visceral, pre-verbal, emotional level anyway... On this site, of all sites. Disappointing and verging on offensive.

PS LAPD just shot a face-down, handcuffed, unarmed guy in the back this week. Shades of Oscar Grant, whose killer bounced around in the system for a couple years in isolation away from the general population before being released. If I shot someone bound and unarmed in the back I'd be serving 20 to life. What do you want to bet that this killer serves even five years for ending someone's life when there was no clear and present danger?

 

[Ruvupav]

And then telling a PTSD sufferer who's nervous around cops that they need to talk statistics in order to justify their aversion, which happens on a visceral, pre-verbal, emotional level anyway... On this site, of all sites. Disappointing and verging on offensive.

See also: Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Obedience Experiment tests for the dangers of blind obedience to uniformed authority figures, even without trauma complicating the issue.