What does receiving empathy feel like to you?

[scout86]

But inside, I feel lost and alone and isolated, and it hurts deeply.

Do you have any thoughts on what would change those feelings?

I find "feelings" to be kind of complicated, at least complicated to talk about, so I'm probably not going to this very well. But, do you have any idea what forms a recognizable connection for you?

because I don't want to make them feel bad.

This is one of the things I find complicated. My T tells me that we don't actually MAKE other people feel anything. They feel what they feel. (I'm pretty sure he wouldn't advocate saying things that are mean, just for the sake of being mean.)

 

[The Albatross]

Come back to your opening post: "So basically, my experience with therapy all along has been...the T is saying the nice-but-empty things to try to get me to reconsider my emotions and feel differently."

I would personally further examine "nice-but-empty things". Smacks to me of perceptual bias. If you aren't receptive to empathetic responses... what do YOU need to do to reconsider your emotions and change your perceptions or feel differently to get progress and growth?

A few years ago, just after I figured out I'm autistic, I shared this information with an older guy at church who had kind of taken me under his wing and was teaching me how to play guitar. He basically said, "Well I feel connected to you, so it's not really a problem." Which totally invalidated all of the pain I was feeling over feeling so isolated internally from people. So now when my T says he feels connected to me, or when he talks about me doing what it takes so others feel connected to me, I feel like he's saying that, so long as everyone else feels good about the relationship, it doesn't really matter how horribly alone and isolated I feel inside. Since there's nothing anyone can do about my feelings, I just have to live with it and do what I can to protect others from feeling pain in our relationship.

I'm sure he doesn't intend it to be one-sided, and he's said as much. But I can't yet hear it any other way.

Here's the thing. He was teaching you how to play guitar. You notify the teacher about autism, he says it's not a problem. Autism not being a problem to learn the guitar, and he affirmed that he felt connected to you irrespective of the information you disclosed.

Where your brain skipped on ahead... is you perceived it as a "totally invalidated all of the pain I was feeling so isolated internally from people". Wow. How did you get there? You need a major perceptual shift because you are having expectations for social interactions that are way way loaded and stack the deck in your relationships.

Guess what has to change? Your perceptions need to be with in real time within context. Others aren't responsible or held to the standard you have in your head. There isn't a reason to feel isolated and you have some trying to tell you that... but you give preference to your own thoughts and feelings and justify them by the "evidence" you find. Why?

 

[DogwoodTree]

Do you have any thoughts on what would change those feelings?

No. I've been racking my brain for years trying to figure out what I need from another person in order to feel connected with them, in order to feel a sense of comfort from their response. I've not figured out anything.

My T tells me that we don't actually MAKE other people feel anything. They feel what they feel. (I'm pretty sure he wouldn't advocate saying things that are mean, just for the sake of being mean.)

Yes, I understand this. And yet, if you know that person typically has a painful emotional response to a particular kind of statement from you, you'd want to avoid saying that kind of thing in the future, right?

 

[DogwoodTree]

I would personally further examine "nice-but-empty things". Smacks to me of perceptual bias. If you aren't receptive to empathetic responses... what do YOU need to do to reconsider your emotions and change your perceptions or feel differently to get progress and growth?

I get this is my own bias. On a subconscious level, I think I've suspected that all my life. And so I always make myself respond in a way that is socially acceptable. And that's okay for typical day to day interactions. I can fake it pretty well.

The problem is that the EXPERIENCE of being empathized with is a crucial piece of what makes therapy work... it helps build the trust and sense of safety with the therapist. But if I'm not receiving his empathy for real in therapy... if I'm just faking it there too...it undermines developing the trust needed for therapeutic methods to work at an emotional level (cognitive trust is there already but not emotional trust). When T said other people typically feel supported by empathic expressions, he also pointed out that if that weren't true, most of the work he does would be invalidated.

As for reconsidering my emotions or changing my perceptions... isn't that the essence of invalidation? My T is trying to teach me that my emotions matter... whatever they are. That I don't have to deny what I really feel in order to fit into someone else's expectations. If I truly don't feel supported by his empathic response... it's not that my emotions are wrong and need changing, it's that we need to troubleshoot whatever is causing that problem or find another way to help me feel emotionally supported. I do evaluate my perceptions for accuracy all the time... this is a core feature of how my brain works. I believe he was and is sincere in his expressions of empathy. It just doesn't do anything for me. A mirror reflecting a mirror is a true reflection, but it doesn't really have substance or significance. So it's not that I need to reevaluate whether I believe him. It's that empathy simply has no substance for me. Is that bias, or is that a legitimate difference in how my brain works? If it's legitimate, then T and I will need to explore alternatives, I guess.

I asked the question here, I suppose, because I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that other people truly feel supported by expressions of empathy. That seems so bizarre to me. I can't quite imagine what that feels like. But if I can start to imagine it, maybe that will help me find a reasonable substitute.

 

[DogwoodTree]

He was teaching you how to play guitar. You notify the teacher about autism, he says it's not a problem. Autism not being a problem to learn the guitar, and he affirmed that he felt connected to you irrespective of the information you disclosed

No it was more than that. We were becoming friends. At the time, I was starting to see him as a sort of father figure (not that I felt that way with him, but pursuing activities and engagement patterns with that goal mind), which was appropriate in that church's culture, but I see now it was coming from an unhealthy place in me. So I wouldn't pursue that kind of relationship now. But at the time, it was invalidating in the context of the relationship. Don't my feelings matter in the relationship too?

I understand that most relationships aren't designed to carry that kind of weight. But a FEW relationships should, shouldn't they? Aren't we supposed to feel connected to the people closest to us? I'm not talking about enmeshed "this is where I get all my sense of value" I'm talking about just a sense of being known, of not being alone with your emotions, of being "seen" for real. Not just cognitively telling myself these things must be true, but of actually feeling it inside.

I see evidence that other people feel these things with each other, and when I ask, they say it's true. Like my T telling me most people feel supported by expressions of empathy. But that layer is totally missing from my internal experience. If it was missing from some relationships and not others... fine. But that's not the case. It's missing from ALL my relationships. And when people say, "well I feel connected to you", okay, that's good, I've played by the social rules well enough that I pulled that off with you, but what about my feelings? I need to feel connected too, at least somewhere!

To gloss over that missing piece... to not acknowledge the deep, existential loneliness that pervades my whole internal world... leaves me feeling even more alone and isolated inside. Do you see how people saying, "well you just need to accept this because we all feel connected to you and so any pain you're feeling still is your own misperception" leaves me feeling even more alone inside? I can't even talk about the loneliness without someone saying the problem is just my perception. Supposedly I just have to change how I see it to make myself feel differently. But that's what I tried do most of my life already... thinking I just needed to learn more or practice these social rules more and eventually it would click. But it doesn't work that way. I can't think my way out of autism. What I'm trying to do now is think my way THROUGH it. This IS what I feel. Now how can I work with it?

 

[scout86]

The problem is that the EXPERIENCE of being empathized with is a crucial piece of what makes therapy work... it helps build the trust and sense of safety with the therapist.

I'm not sure that's always true. Most of the time, I'm oblivious to empathy. When I notice it, it seems like a crisis. My T is pretty sensitive and I imagine he's pretty empathetic. But, I trust him because he's proven to fairly consistently trustworthy. I feel reasonably safe around him because he's rarely done anything scary. (When he has, he didn't know I'd take it the way I did, it was a fluke.) I guess would be nice if I, or you, were rewarded by empathy, but I'm not sure it's vital.

can't even talk about the loneliness without someone saying the problem is just my perception.

I'm not sure that the ability to "get" empathy is the solution to the loneliness anyway. (Maybe it is, I'm just not sure.) It seems like finding people who comfortably accept you, and like you, as you are might matter more. They may not actually be able to empathize with you at ALL, because their experience of the world might be wildly different from yours. That doesn't mean they can't value you for who you are. It can be hard to find people like that. It can also be hard to trust that you've accurately identified them.

When someone says they feel a connection with you, that can be true, even if you don't feel a connection with them. I guess it's also possible to feel a connection, but not realize that's the name of what you feel.

 

[grit]

Very interesting topic. A lot of ground is covered?
Empathy is one of the most complicated emotion in human experience ssions.
I wonder, just wonder if your autism mixed with ptsd makes you unique and the fact you want to be like every body else is the barrier to fulfilling relationships? Even everybody else is different.!
There are a lot of people who have neither of those conditions and still suffer same things or more.
Your strive to be seen or accepted is quite high and maybe Noone but you can provide that missing function. Almost (key is almost) all of us want to be seen and some never to be seen in this life time.
Therapy takes us far as far as another person can take us. Then we develop the missing link or we find in another to regulate it for us....if we are unable to do it ourselves. A therapist can truly forever help one regulate and have ruptures and repair with that client forever. The client may just be unable to regulate self or emotions ever... Anything is possible.
I think you are like a person on foot saying I want to get there as fast as a person on bike or even airplane. It will not work. You may not be biologically able to do or experience what another human is experiencing. What is empathy? No one will ever know what we feel exactly to the point. They may feel we are sad but at what percentage never! No two humans are ever exactly same feeling even in pregnancy... We do not... To a point.
Your feelings matter. Everyone's feelings matter but not all feelings are valid. If you feel sadistic to share that is your feeling. Another person may feel you are sadistic but never at what depth or percentage... Our chemical mix is different.
If you feel invalidated all the time at some point you have take responsibility for your feelings. This is human condition.
Also you are valuing emotions over cognition. You can use language like you are here to say I feel lonely or sad. The other person can feel that with you but never exact way you are. They are not extension of you. Even you may feel pain in your one leg but not on your other leg! You cannt force the leg to feel the pain of the other leg. But the healthy leg will act or work harder to overcompensate the missing hurt leg. You can feed the world hunger and not have empathy capacity and know cognitively. You have your own speciality...
At end.

 

[Heguy21]

Dear DogwoodTree,

My wife and I both struggle with PTSD. She is overly empathetic and I’m the exact opposite. A year ago we hit our rock bottom. I became cold and shut off and she became so hurt, it felt like daggers with every word I said. It’s when I surrendered myself to Jesus is when our relationship took a turn. I spent time in study learning about PTSD and other mental health topics that relate. What I am saying is, Jesus can heal you. Not without a lot of work but he can keep you pointed in the right direction. When it’s so much to handle, I call on Jesus and lay it at the cross. When situations get even harder, I lay it at the cross. Through patience and prayer, we ultimately see the other side of the storm. I also find healing caring for my wife and showing empathy for myself. Keep searching for answers through prayer and you’ll get what you’re looking for.

 

[Keming]

humans are herd animals. humans share shelter and food and happiness and grief. nonconformity is punished. if you won't conform to the herds wishes, the herd will reject you.

f*ck the herd.

 

[MrMoonlight]

receiving empathy or validation makes me feel heard and a little less crazy.