What Happens In A Church... Can't Be Talked About With My Therapist?! What?!

[Ivan the Elder]

@stillstanding2 : I understand exactly what you are suggesting. It can be done as you suggest but it can also be very difficult to deal with at a personal level. I am in a situation where I might decide to take my case from earlier this year to a very high level. However, time is an enemy in these matters as people forget or change stories, sometimes in ways where they don't realize they have altered their own memory. In my case I have other reasons to hold off since I am waiting for medical treatment that i desperately need. It is extremely expensive and will be paid by the government, as long as they don't find a reason not to. This puts me in a position where I now look at that treatment as a kind of "down payment" toward what I feel I am owed. In reality, there isn't enough money in this world to pay what I (we) are owed for what took place due to the actions of others this year. My only real hope is to prevent something such as happened to us, the destruction of our 44 year marriage, from ever happening again to anyone else, at least for a good long time. I must balance what that is worth against what my own future existence is worth. Because of that I am not taking any action at this time. I easily could.

What could be possible for JMH must be balanced against what will give her personally the best and safest outcome. She must come first and anybody / anything else second in a case such as hers, just as it does in my case. I think she will be best served by simply leaving this all behind and opening a new and better chapter in her life.

 

[stillstanding2]

@stillstanding2 : I understand exactly what you are suggesting. It can be done as you su...

@Evan, we're in agreement. My main reason for saying what I did was to highlight @Justmehere's importance in illustrating the hidden potential of abuse in secretive organizations. If she puts the whole subject behind her, good for her.

She has really already done enough by telling the story anonymously to this forum. She has received total support in her situation, and can no longer need to be anxious about the incidents. The narrative she gave us, and all the Forum's responses, show the value of this forum as a true resource for anyone with PTSD.

@Justmehere has beautifully spoken out to the appropriate people besides her therapist, and that is the worst nightmare of control freaks. I want her to be proud of that. Perhaps other readers will be encouraged to come forth with such information.

She has obviously struck our nerves. This is the 86th post on her thread. In the raw, the thread is a genuine document that could inspire any writer without involving her. Perhaps some of our members, such as I, will use this document as a model for fact-based fiction.

If I write the story, the setting will be the hard-core Bible Belt of Texas, and I know the person to substitute for @Justmehere. (I will not need such details as the ridiculous peanut butter criticism, but may substitute skin color or another feature.)

I do hope that she recognizes the value of her recording and these responses, and will preserve them in some form. I have my own print-out.

That said, I will honor any objection @Justmehere has to any further publication. Her anonymity is foremost to me. She has suffered enough.

Anyone see reason for me not to go ahead with a story? Good luck to all.

 

[joeylittle]

Perhaps some of our members, such as I, will use this document as a model for fact-based fiction...Anyone see reason for me not to go ahead with a story? Good luck to all.

I'm speaking as a member, not staff - and I'm not @Justmehere, only an interested observer.

The material on the site is the property of MyPTSD. So direct replication of content is flat-out prohibited.

'Inspired by' is something that no-one could prevent you from doing.

I would hope that members follow not only the letter of the law, in terms of not replicating content - but also the SPIRIT of the law, which stands there as the only real protection of our stories that we have.

Personally, I think if you want to write a story, you should write your own, and not go looking to use the structure of someone else's.

Because regardless of details - we all know who we are.

Those are my thoughts.

 

[stillstanding2]

I'm speaking as a member, not staff - and I'm not @Justmehere, only an interested...

Thanks for your comment. Be assured that I would not replicate anything directly from the forum. I would seek other sources, such as my own therapist, a minister or two, and ensure that all identities are changed dramatically.

I'm a professional writer, and writing for good causes is part of my own therapy. I've already written plenty of my own story in many ways, including similar experience to that of JMH. I merely thought to use this thread as a guide in telling a story that needs telling.

Of course there is a wealth of stories about church abuses, but evidently not enough to stop the cruelty. I've even thought of joining a particular church, wearing a "wire" to gather more material. Thanks again for your comment.

I am not irresponsible when it comes to security for victims.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

Actually, the material on this site that is written by the members belongs to the members, not the site. Copyright law automatically grants full copyright to anyone that creates content. There is no need for it to be registered and it is not necessary to state that something is under copyright. That is automatic. Stating copyright simply gives additional advantages in court. I am very well aware of how copyright works as I have published a great deal over the years. I also instructed my daughter on this. She owns a newspaper. I have been published in computer magazines, Popular Electronics, a number of newspapers as well as photography for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I also have published software. My total of published material is in the range of 20,000 pages. For images alone I have about 5000 currently on the net. I also run a number of web sites, both for myself and for others as well as providing online serving for web sites. I own about 10 URLs and serve for more.

Permission to republish anything posted on this site must be obtained from the person that wrote it. Also, there is a concept in copyright law that could well have direct application here. It is known as "moral copyright". This is owned by the author of any created material and cannot be sold, released or given away. It gives the author the right to enforce copyright on anything that may have a negative effect on the moral reputation of the author. This applies even when commercial copyright has been released in any way.

There are several very limited exceptions that permit the use of publicly printed material. Those exceptions are very limited and fall under a very few types of exceptions. I won't go into the details but the information is freely available if you just look up the US or Canadian copyright acts. Both are very similar. Also, copyright is limited to each country and there is no such thing as "international copyright" although many think there is. The primary reason that copyright belongs to each member that writes here is to prevent legal ramifications that could apply to the publisher of this site if they owned the copyright. That is most important when considering the possibility of defamation in the form of Libel. The basic rule for copyright is to always assume that copyright applies to the writer unless it is very clearly stated otherwise. That is why I have stated that any images I place here are to be considered as public domain.

 

[stillstanding2]

Actually, the material on this site that is written by the members belongs to the members, not the site. Co...

For God's sake @Evan, this is not about you or me. It's about victimization of a heroic person. I won't list my credentials as you have. Suffice it to say that in 55+ years as a writer, I have never violated copyright law, never pirated onyone's writing. When I worked for the State of Texas, even the White House trusted and used my stuff. I don't need a lecture on copyright or intellectual property. I am not a loose cannon. Thanks anyway for your comment. I hear you.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

Hey, I am an asperger type. That is how we approach things. I have learned to hide it a lot of the time but not always. ;-)

I should point out that when I write something like that it isn't just a reply to you. It is general info for anybody that might read it. Also, that wasn't for you, it was for joeylittle.

 

[The Albatross]

Hmm. @stillstanding2 you are on ignore. I shudder to think now of the "writers" who've used material here as a basis for their ideas of "a story that needs telling".

 

[stillstanding2]

Hmm. @stillstanding2 you are on ignore. I shudder to think now of the "writer...

Thanks for your help. I'm sure a lot of control freaks would appreciate your understanding.

 

[Justmehere]

I am no hero who was victimized. That's way too black and white of a viewpoint and is the same error the church itself made, and to some degree, even I made. But I will write more on that later.

I appreciate that my permission was requested to reproduce my words elsewhere. Thank you for seeking permission before publication. I also appreciate the heart behind the request, and the desire to address issues around churches failing at integrating those with PTSD into community life.

I want to make this clear: I do not give my permission nor my approval nor my consent for my words on this thread to be published anywhere else by any third party, except for what myptsd.com chooses to do with what I have posted on this site per my agreement (and every members agreement) with myptsd.com that I entered into when I signed up to become a member.

I don't own the content on myptsd.com, and my posts are content that mypstd.com has full copyright control over.

I know the risks I take when I write anything on a public internet forum. I know I could become much more exposed than I would like, and it's a risk I choose to take. Nothing I write here is private by any means.

Myptsd.com does retain control over my words that I post here, and there is very good reason for requiring us to agree to that when we become members.

If it is a bad agreement for us to make, then we have the choice to not agree to it and not post on myptsd.com. We have the choice to not post words we do not want myptsd.com to retain control over.

I agreed to it, and it is a legally binding agreement. It is also a good agreement to require of members. It would be quickly disastrous and messy and impossible to run this site if members did retain full control over what happens to content on myptsd.com, even just their own posts.

It is possible I could take the same thing I have written here and have it published someplace else, but I legally and ethically should go about it in specific ways that I don't want to get into now. I fully believe be intent of requesting my permission has been done in an effort to respect copyright and ownership of content.

I could also write about the same issues generally and specifically as content for other publishers without all the issues about publishing content from myptsd.com.

But please know that I can't just give permission for myptsd.com content to just simply be published elsewhere. I certainly can't give any permission for others responses on a thread to be published elsewhere. It's not my place and I don't have copyright control.

*People can properly cite or link back to any public internet forum, and they can quote a very small percentage of public writing with proper citations and without asking for special permission.* If the requester of my permission really does understand copyright laws, they would know this. However, anything beyond that does become a copyright issue.

Members on this site can't reproduce the content of other sites here on this one without permission. However, we can quote small percentages of content on other sites. I could quote a psychology today article here, and not obtain permission from psychology today, but I couldn't reproduce the content on psychology today on this site.

The poster is asking for permission, if they really do understand copyright issues, that makes me believe they are looking to reproduce full content, and they are frankly going about it in an ineffective way.

@stillstanding2 - if you really have been a professional and published writer for as long as you claim, then I would expect a higher degree of professionalism in how you go about your request. I would expect you to go about making your request in a very different way than you are. You seem really hurt by what you have been through,and perhaps acting a little impulsively in your efforts, driven by your passion for change. I encourage you to focus on what you have been through and your pain, for which you can speak to very well.

As far as ownership and control over myptsd.com content, if there are any questions/comments/concerns about the agreement members make when they become members and the publication of content on myptsd.com and copyright issues and what control myptsd.com does and does not retain over the content members publish here, then I request that someone starts a thread at the help desk and the staff can take it from there to work it out.

If there are questions/comments/concerns about what third parties can and can not publish and the role of member consent, please start a help desk thread to sort that out.

Otherwise, let me clear up the issue on this thread and make it clear that I do not consent, permit, nor approve of anything I have written here on myptsd.com to be published by anyone or any organization other than myptsd.com and whatever they choose to do with it or whatever permissions they give.

Furthermore, I really don't even want to have a small part of what I have written on this thread even quoted someplace else, but I know that very short quotes can be taken without even asking for my permission or that of myptsd.com.

***If anyone asks my preference, it is that I prefer people to find a differenet "hero" or "victim" for your story and publication. Please not me. Please. I don't want that. Especially not this thread. Especially not if you have been writing for the White House or whomever. No thanks. I'm not what you even try to make me out to be on this thread. Please leave me out of the content of your writing elsewhere.***

I have been published before on issues around how faith communities handle mental health, and there is a time and place for that. I prefer that my words on this thread do not travel any further than they already will by the nature of posting them here.

I hope from here, the matter regarding publication elsewhere can be dropped on this thread, and the thread can go back to discussing issues around churches handling (and mishandling) of PTSD, and members struggling to be integrated members of thier faith communities, and for me, my personal battle with not being overly defensive and fierce about being heard and having a voice and healing from childhood trauma as it relates to this thread.

 

[stillstanding2]

I am no hero who was victimized. That's way too black and white of a viewpoint and is the same error...

@Justmehere, I will honor entirely what you have said. Thank you.

Let me say that quoting you or anyone else on this thread was never my intent. It is your privacy at stake should someone clumsily handle the information from this thread, and I have tried to make clear that I would not violate that. You may not consider yourself a hero, but I always will.

Yes, I will drop the subject of using this thread in any part, because you have asked that I do so. I have not meant harm. I shall find other material on my own, should I choose to write anything else on the subject. I'm sorry if I have caused you any anxiety. I respect your wishes completely, and that will be the end.

I am conscious of my own fervor to defy bullies and manipulators, and have written extensively about them. Much of my own PTSD is based on that. Please forgive me if what I said seemed threatening. I meant mainly to support and praise you.

I also meant to be a thorn in the side of abusers who might read what's been said so well by everyone, NOT FOR ANY PROFIT to myself. Abusers count on others' ignoring voices like mine, and they hate to hear me in print. If any should read this thread, let them know that some people like me can effectively speak up if we wish to.

Please don't worry further. And thank you again.

 

[Justmehere]

I have wanted to and been working on posting a response to everyone who has written. I haven't gotten to finishing that yet. I really appreciate all the encouragement and advice. It's helped me keep my head on straighter as I have continued to work through what happened. I'm still pretty sad and shaken about the churches actions and pretty frustrated with myself. I'm so glad for this forum and the passionate and non-judgemental support that you all are.

@stillstanding2 - I got ya. I get really passionate about standing up to bullies and manipulators too. I want to see churches handle mental health issues so much better and I have taken action in other ways myself. Thanks for respecting my wishes. I appreciate it greatly.

Church abuse has been around as long as the church has existed. It's a human organization run by humans. Some churches are evil, most are ok with moments and areas of problematic dysfunction, and some are really healthy.

Just like humans.

It is especially painful when a place that should be good and safe for the hurting becomes a place of more hurt because of the wielding of power too heavily. It's important to stand up against that, and it's important to do so in a way that doesn't hurt others except truly evil abusers.

The pastor of this church was trying to be a hero. Trying to guard and protect and vindicate the people he saw as victims. He thought I had taped Susie's (not real name) prayer request and played the tape publically. That's what he was initially trying to protect against. I agree that if I had done that, it would have been horribly wrong. A prayer request should be kept private (not a bible study teaching). He assumed that's what I did, shared the tape of private prayer requests in a public setting, and in his zeal and passion to protect those he saw as a victim, he didn't hear me out at all. He didn't see the situation for what it was. He didn't listen, and when began to listen, he was still so caught up in impressing upon me that it was wrong wrong wrong... he stopped being able to put himself in the shoes of anyone else and invaded in ways he should not have. He went way too far. He had good intentions and yet still hurt me, badly. He pathologized me, scared me, invaded my boundaries, and ostracized me. It hurt! It still does. It was not something that the church should ver be doing.

I am no hero. I screamed curse words in a building full of people when a simple and calm "no" would have been not only more appropriate, but also would have been much more effective. At the very least I wouldn't have left feeling so bad about myself if I had responded in a calmer way.

He was being foolish and invasive, and he did so in and effort to be the hero himself. I had the right boundary in place against his actions, but I was ineffective and hurtful in my execution of it.

If someone didn't like something I was doing, I would want them to calmly tell me to stop, even if they had to say it again or just get up and leave if for some reasons I did not stop. I would not help me and it would scare me if they started yelling "you f*cking hypocrite!"

I would never permanently ban someone for doing that once, especially not if I had scared them and they did it to try and get me to back off, PTSD or not.

I would hesitate inviting that person to come hang out at an organization that often has little children around. I too would want to work through it before they did come back around. I wouldn't invade their therapy sessions, but I would be freaked out a bit and look for a way to gently protect against any upset to any kiddos from being scared by someone who had lost their sh*t.

The pastor was out of line, even if well meaning to invade what happens in therapy. If we are looking to have crap like this not happen again, we have to remember that he was trying to be he hero, and he wasn't 100% wrong. I played a big role in the mess, and this is all why I posted about it here. I wanted feedback to help me see this more clearly. I was so freaked out about how they could invade and think it was a good idea and I was so freaked out about what I did as well.

The pastor that I yelled has had called, texted, and emailed. I did take the bait a few days ago and answered the phone. I didn't screw up by yelling and screaming and I did do a better job of just saying no and only no to him in a calmer way. He listened a heck of a lot better this time. He still said a bunch of things that left me confused and hurt.

He did say he wasn't understanding me or hearing my no, and he realized that was wrong. He said he was trying and he didn't know how or what to do, but he wanted me to know he was not trying to hurt me and wanted a path for me to be back at the church and wanted help figuring it out.

The call still ended in a weird way with him still making weird requests about therapy, but we both understood each other a little better.

A few days ago, I also went to a wedding of a close friend, and this pastor and another were at the wedding. It went ok, everyone was cordial and the senior pastor made an effort to say hello and tell me he was glad I was there at the wedding (which wasn't at the church.)

Yesterday, I tracked down the senior pastor and he brought clarity and reason to the whole mess. He pretty quickly saw that I agreed that it would be an invasion of trust if I had played Susie's prayer request to my friends, and he agreed my therapy has to be private, and he agreed that all I needed to do was to agree to not scream curse words in the church an work on my issues as to why I screamed. He agreed that the other pastor was confused and trying to go where he didn't need to and shouldn't be going. He agreed the whole thing was a hurtful mess.

He told me I acted so out of character that it surprised them and they did want to help, if that's what I needed. He asked me to come back and "get back into the flow of things," and "I will leave it up to you to do whatever you need to do to work on not screaming at people in the church again."

Fair enough.

It's not really a full resolution to the crap that happened, but it was a huge step in the right direction and a lot of reason brought into the mater that I really badly wanted to see happen.

It takes a lot of humility to change course like they have, and I give them some credit for that.

I haven't returned to the church and I don't know if I will.

I continue to be struck with how defensive I still am in all of my relationships and how hard it is for me to say no, and nothing but no! (see post above regarding having my words published elsewhere. I could have said all of that by just quoting the request or of permission to publish and typing two letters: no. What I did write was still useful, and not wrong, but a little too driven by my habit to over defend and over justify every boundary I have.)

I'm working on it. I clearly have a lot of work to do! :)

I'm also working a lot in therapy about the old childhood neglect, where nothing I said and did was heard and respected and invasion always eventually came,

I wanted to be safe as a kid and I want to be safe in my faith community too. It's so hard to find. Way too hard.