Other Trying to understand "lack of empathy"

[Deleted member 47099]

My ex, also perp, clearly lacks empathy, I tell my kids he's most likely on the spectrum, because it's not appropriate for me to talk about psychopathy with them, at this stage, and I've read Tony Attwood's book on Aspergers and one form or presentation of it, describes my ex to a T.

I was with him for 20+ years so I think I have a right to not only read and research, but to seek diagnostic descriptions that fit the behaviour cluster that I experienced, at his hands, as well as, to tell my children something to help them understand their dads disturbing behaviours, and clear minus in the empathy department. And yes, it is very horrifying and haunting.

It's like a well of emptiness, an emotional void, that's filled instead with manipulative ploys, lies and horrific inability to care for the welfare of other's, plus no stops with law breaking, exploiting people or pulling himself up when he's causing harm.

Thanks @mumstheword :hug:

Yeah, when you've been exposed to it over a long time, and witnessed it over and over and over again, you realise the (horrifying) dimensions of it and can't ever forget it again.

I do hope that *good* research is done in areas like this that will help people like your youngest son to deal with their... can we call it a disability of some kind?

I dare say that with appropriate treatment/ care/ monitoring, as a society we can help these people to not become perps (which I am sure is harrowing for many of these people too - many do not want to become perps and it sounds like your son is struggling and trying).

I think as a society it would also be important to *try* and keep these people from situation/ positions/ jobs where they could be a harm to children and others. But obviously we would need far, far better research to be able to do that.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts! :)

And well done re helping your youngest son. I hope as he grows older he will seek treatment and maybe over time he, you and his therapist will be able to work out "what exactly is going on" and what help he needs to be a well-adjusted, functional and hopefully happy human being.

 

[Deleted member 47099]

Lack of empathy doesn't automatically mean perp. That isn't what's about.

I didn't say that it does, Sietz.

But perps without empathy are very difficult to understand, IMO.

It's a difficult phenomenon to try and grasp and to try and "come to terms" with and to try and "make peace with".

 

[Deleted member 47099]

I had a perp that lacked empathy and I had perps that did not.

One of my perps had empathy, R. To be honest, it was really bad because of it, he always knew how to push my buttons in order to get me to that emotional place. He cried with me even. f*cked up stuff.

Wow, Sietz, what you describe in your perp R sounds pretty bizarre. A different kind of freaky to empathy-less perps.
I don't know if you've tried analysing/ understanding it/ what made him be a perp?
I can't begin to guess.

@lostforgottensoul and @Sietz would you say there's a difference re your experience re perp with/ without empathy?

 

[ILoveLife]

That's true.. but in order to understand them, we need empathy towards them :)

 

[ILoveLife]

I don't know if you've tried analysing/ understanding it/ what made him be a perp?

I've tried. Honestly, I chalked it up to bad wiring. Don't give a shit, his actions speak louder than whatever brought him there.

 

[somerandomguy]

But perps without empathy are very difficult to understand, IMO.

I don't think it IS worth trying to understand them.

I think if someone lacks basic human empathy to the point that they become a perp, that's pretty much all you need to know about them.

I think humans are too complicated to ever be able to tell why some people do what they do. Trying to figure it out and understand someone with that kind of emotional void sounds kind of like beating your head on wall, and just as productive. Maybe scientists or sociologists can work on it, but I prefer to stay out of it.

 

[mumstheword]

Thanks @mumstheword :hug:

Yeah, when you've been exposed to it over a long time, and witnessed it over and over and over again, you realise the (horrifying) dimensions of it and can't ever forget it again.

I do hope that *good* research is done in areas like this that will help people like your youngest son to deal with their... can we call it a disability of some kind?

I dare say that with appropriate treatment/ care/ monitoring, as a society we can help these people to not become perps (which I am sure is harrowing for many of these people too - many do not want to become perps and it sounds like your son is struggling and trying).

I think as a society it would also be important to *try* and keep these people from situation/ positions/ jobs where they could be a harm to children and others. But obviously we would need far, far better research to be able to do that.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts! :)

And well done re helping your youngest son. I hope as he grows older he will seek treatment and maybe over time he, you and his therapist will be able to work out "what exactly is going on" and what help he needs to be a well-adjusted, functional and hopefully happy human being.

He actually wants treatment. He's said to me on more than one occasion. "I don't think I'll become a psychopath mum, because you raised me well. There would have to be conditions. 1, you would have to not be around, you keep me from being one, coz you teach me morals, but if you died, I might become a psychopath. 2, if I don't get treatment, I might become one. And 3, if I got abused or traumatized, I might become one."

So yeah, out of the mouths of babes. Did I mention that he's exceptionally intelligent (IQ of 145)? And he's also very mature and super tall and physically developed.

 

[gealach]

I have a parent that lacks empathy. I think there's likely a personality disorder there, but no assessments or diagnosis. This person just can't put themselves in someone else's shoes and imagine what they are thinking/experiencing/feeling. The lack of empathy is obvious as a lack of compassion.

The lack of empathy and compassion play/played out in literally every aspect of this person's life (and my childhood).

There was actually no involvement or interest in anything growing up, because they ''just worked all day'', and I often say I raised myself. My sibling needed mental health intervention from a young age, and didn't get it, again because this person ''just worked all day''. My sibling became a serious and dangerous criminal.

Perfectionism was and remains a huge manifestation, with no tolerance or understanding of even the most minor and insignificant of mistakes. This applies to this person's family (all estranged now except myself), friends (all estranged), co-workers (all estranged), and strangers interacted with in the course of a day (cashiers, fast food, servers, other drivers, etc.). This applies to fictional characters as well, in books, in movies, and on tv, and to inanimate objects, most often the tv, car, cell, and laptop when they don't immediately perform even when no ''command'' has been given. In essence, everyone (real & fictional) and objects, are catastrophically f*cking up at every moment of every day, and this must be loudly pointed out and criticized with an explanation of what this person would be doing instead (the only right thing to be done).

This has also manifested as insulting and making fun of first responders who have died by suicide. And similarly insulting and making fun of FR's with job-induced mental illnesses. And to add context, I'm a first responder, with ptsd and frequent SI, who has planned before, and who has lost close FR friends to suicide.

How do y'all deal with the "encountering someone who is devoid of empathy" thing?

Until I figured out it was a lack of empathy, and quite likely related to some diagnosis (whatever that may be), I didn't know what to do with this. I thought the person was an angry, bitter, old #$@&% who would die alone without a friend in the world. It created a lot of tension in our ''relationship'', and was driving me crazy. I still think all that, and there's still tension, but now I actively, consistently, and bluntly confront those outbursts.

I find that confronting this person, with heavy serious doses of reality, gets them to STFU temporarily. Sometimes it might even make them think after they've opened their mouth. There's still no empathy, and I don't there ever will be, but with copious repetition this person might one day learn to ''think'' about experiences before they open their mouth, even if they can't ''feel'' the experience. At the very least, confronting the vile is keeping me from going crazy.

 

[Deleted member 47099]

Thanks @gealach

Wow, continuing to interact with them must be so strenuous.

I've been no-contact with my empathy-less perp for nearly 20 years now.

My trauma T gave me a (kind, tough-love) ultimatum... "Either stop all contact to this person or they will eventually (literally) be the death of you and all therapy we do will be pointless because it's just managing the damage, not healing..." which made me take the very difficult step of truly ceasing all outward and inward ties to this person.

It was very hard letting go the hope that this person would one day show empathy. And it was also hard severing all my own emotional ties to this defective, abusive, toxic parent and to view them simply as a perp with some very severe and mysterious mental/ brain disorder.

I hope you don't need to spend much time around your parent-lacking-in-empathy and that you have a lot of people in your life with bountiful empathy that remind you what caring and healthy relationships are like and that fill your heart with the inner strength you need to bear the contact to the parent-lacking-in-empathy.

:hug:

 

[gealach]

I have been no contact with the rest of my ''family'' for 15-ish years, so I definitely understand walking away from toxicity and dysfunction, and how hard that can be. It was very strong of you to hear your T's ultimatum, and cut ties with your perp. It seems like that was a really healthy decision for you.

Do you ever get the ''but family is more important than anything'' type comments? I had to drop a boyfriend over something like that, when he insisted that I just had to have a relationship with my sibling after their biggest crime. There's loyalty, which I understand, but I draw the line at major crimes. It was nope, hell no, and goodbye.

I have a complex(?) relationship with that parent. Realizing, many years ago, that this person can't actually hurt me anymore was an important event. The more recent realization that there was a clinical lack of empathy was like the last puzzle piece fitting into place. This person can drive me mad sometimes, but it doesn't go beyond that, and I fire back with reality. And I have absolute no-go boundaries, cross those and I'm gone.

I also realized some things, just in passing comments from this person, that changed my perspective a bit. They are afraid to be completely alone in the world, and they see my reality comments as ''I can't do anything right, you're always correcting me'' (they don't get it). SMH. I thought those were interesting.

I have a lot of empathy, maybe too much. So maybe I have to be the empathy for both of us.

 

[Deleted member 47099]

Sounds like you're handling it really well @gealach :tup:

Do you ever get the ''but family is more important than anything'' type comments? I had to drop a boyfriend over something like that, when he insisted that I just had to have a relationship with my sibling after their biggest crime. There's loyalty, which I understand, but I draw the line at major crimes. It was nope, hell no, and goodbye.

And yeahhhh :rolleyes:

Over the years I've learned to just not even mention it/ discuss it with ppl who I can tell won't get it...

But yeah, I've cut out a boyfriend over this too before, many many eons ago :laugh:

But really, the ppl who don't get it... it's not really a loss having to do with out them, is it? Leaves more room in our lives for the cool peeps who get it and are supportive and who provide heart-felt solidarity cos they know what it's like to have crazy families.

Someone on the forum said the other day "You can't pick your family, but you can pick your friends. So pick your friends well and make them your family."

That's always been my motto too. I think "family" is a title you have to earn. It means someone who loves you as you are, and who supports you through thick and thin.

Of my "so-called" family-of-origin, only one person fits that definition ^^ and it's someone I'd be friends with, even if we weren't related by blood.

I'm pretty callous re weeding ppl out according to that definiton ^^ so all them "blood relatives" who don't act like family? Well, I've told them that in no uncertain terms.

And the amazing friends you can call in the middle of the night and say "Ummmm... I'm really sorry to wake you, but xyz has just happened... Could you.... (fill in blank)...?" - and the ones that can ring you in the middle of the night and say the same - they're the real family, IMO.

And anyone else, who disagrees with all that and has some old-fashioned blood-is-thicker-than-water lecture they feel they need to give, well they can just take a long walk and go jump in a lake :p

I've sacrificed stuff a billion times over for them dumb blood relatives... I took their abusive crap until I was suicidal and then I kept taking it, longer still... I reckon that's plenty for one lifetime... :rolleyes:

Now they can stew in their toxic muck without me and do or not do whatever the heck they want.

(Hah! That was a long rant! :laugh: )

 

[gealach]

that particular boyfriend was a bit of an odd situation. We'd grown up together since about 5 years old, our families had been neighbors, our mother's had worked for the same employer, and our mother's and families were still friends. So, he knew about us, and that something really terrible had happened. But not everything. Which kind of pissed me off more, when he insisted on maintaining the relationship with that person.

I actually changed my name and moved 100's of kilometers away not long after that. New people don't know anything. Like you, I just don't mention any of it.