I expect him not to get angry. Is that fair?

[Friday]

I don't think I came close to being that dramatic

Didn’t say you were. I was providing a counter point using a different trait, under the same paradigm/set of rules you’re employing, and then let it spiral in the way things usually do, when someone breaks the rules. Again, just to slideshow/highlight the process.

You can take any trait or set of behaviors and do the same thing. It’s a highly predictable pattern.

People simply have a very finite number of reactions when they’ve hit their limit on any kind of repetitive event. Whether it’s a bad day, or bad relationship.

:mad: Blow Up
:cry: Melt Down
:sleep: Shut Down
:stop: Absolute Refusal <<< No crying. No yelling. No more forever. Done.
:hilarious: Laugh it off
:brb: Dissociate (what didn’t happen?)
:speechless: Denial (lets just pretend this never happened)
:watching: Run Away
:bookworm: Rationalize
:sick: Fall ill
:nailbiting: Avoid

Plus a few others, but mostly we start getting into combos.

In the short term? It’s not a huge deal. (Any of these, but looking specifically at Absolute Refusal) You sit around a kitchen table after a bad date eating ice cream with your bestie declaring no more men! Or after a day that started with not being able to find your shoes, breaking a heel once you get to work, having to go to three stores to find the right size, get a blister anyway, slip on the floor with new soles, come home and find the dog has chewed up every left sneaker? When hubby comes home and wants to talk about these nifty running shoes... NO. No more shoes. I am done with shoes. Do not mention shoes in my presence. Shoes are dead to me.

Totally human, normal, natural reaction. Nope. Huh-uh. Done.

The problem comes in when it’s not a bad day that’s sorted in a few hours, or a bad relationship that’s a few weeks of irrationality, but things like abusive relationships... and the normal human reaction? That usually dissipates naturally, or is actively discouraged? Is encouraged, instead, and becomes a belief stucture to begin with, propped up with a lot of cognitive distortions, or even a core belief. Shoes are wrong. Crying is wrong. Anger is wrong. I don’t want shoes in my life. I don’t want crying in my life. I don’t want anger in my life.

It usually starts out as a fairly calm thing. What feels like a very rational thing. Abuse = anger = I don’t want anger in my life. (I was raped wearing a pretty dress, I don’t want to be raped, so I won’t wear pretty dresses.) But because it’s born out of cognitive distortions? It tends to escalate and blow up fairly quickly. <<< You see that exact pattern in DV circles as often as you see rape victims blaming themselves. It’s. Just. That. Predicitble. >>> It comes from a really good place, of trying to make a better life, and not repeat past mistakes, and grow as a person / be a better person. Which makes it even harder to take a step back and go... Oh. This isn’t quite as rational as it seems? Is it?

 

[grit]

Hi Preciouschild,
I think you have received a lot of food for a thought and great feedbacks. I will just add few points.

Reality:
People get angry.
Reality:
Some go into the negative cycle (see Friday's post) to express.
Others go into neutral or positive way of expressing - basically accepting the reality and nature of anger, recognizing in oneself, acknowledging when felt, and expressing in words with special attention to tone, intensity, and projection.

It is mature way of having an adult relationship that allows both people to be who they are, allow when slip into negative reactions, acknowledge and apologize (also call in therapy rupture and repair), and use humor when necessary.

What is not mature is hoping, or wishing that you never get angry and lose it, and you never allow the other to lose it. That control of the future will never work in intimate, loving relationship.

Just think this way: If your son gets really angry and loses it, do you lose the love for him? If you get angry and lose it (provided it is not often) does he love you less?

That is the collective reality. We are human with vices.

As long as your reference point is my dad did this or my ex did this, you are not 100% seeing this man for who is. And you are 100% in enmeshment of those relationships. This man has 100% nothing to do with your dad or your ex and every time you put them in the same sentence, YOU are creating a reality for you not to have healthy relationship.

In my experience, those who say they never get mad or angry are the angriest of all. They project and become most passive/aggressive people and wonder why no one likes them or likes to be around them - cause we start to walk on egg shells.

Accept YOUR ANGER that was taken away from you as a child. Your dad probably got so much anger, you never learn how to experience yours in healthy, and productive way so you are afraid of your own anger but projecting to others thinking - this man should not get angry.

Next time you feel anger, where do you feel? What does it feel? and what do you say to yourself internally?

PS. Please take my post with grain of salt and it may be repetitious of what others said in much better taste. I also grew up with angry mother and held my own anger inside my stomach and was praying never to find a man who is angry. I did. My husband does not get angry. it was great. amazing and wow! how lucky for me. Until I went to therapy and realize, guess what? I am carrying my own anger and his. He was getting free ride on my knotted stomach! I was so much trying to make the environment so nice and sweet opposite to my old mother that I swallowed so much anger for all of us. No more! I disclosed this to my husband as I learned in therapy and started to hurdle back his anger. Sorry mmmmlll I do not want your anger and I am sending it back. It has changed our relationship in the most beautiful and delicious way. We started to even joke about it! the minute he starts to project or pushes as he did before, I started to hurdle it right back like a baseball!

he also came from a dad with a temper and learned to swallow...where I learned to displace onto others.

Now we can get angry and blue on the face or we can recognize, one of us is angry and is in the past and the other can be here and keep the shop. In short, anger is not a menace we ignore but a reality we live. It is actually an ongoing laughter how we express or who easily we get and how amazing we regulate now. We have come a long way together.

I am more relaxed and he is more confident as a result of our journey. That can happen to you as well.

 

[PreciousChild]

I talked to my T about this today, and she gave me some perspective as well. As you all are saying, I too wonder if I'm suppressing or minimizing my anger because of my history. She and I both felt that I am not suppressing my anger in an unhealthy way. She thought that I do in fact deal with anger in a healthy way. When I feel hurt or weird about something, I always make it a point to have a conversation about it with my bf. It usually turns out to be silly, which is why sometimes I feel stupid about bringing it up. But more to the point, revealing our true feelings can feel very vulnerable. My T thinks that is exactly what is at the core of anger - by avoiding or dismissing our genuine feelings of hurt or fear, which then gets built up. I think when people shut down or explode, it's two sides of the same coin - BOTH approaches allow a person to avoid bringing up and addressing genuine feelings of vulnerability. @Friday, to be honest with you, your list of coping mechanisms seems to me to be all related in the sense that they are ways to avoid addressing one's feelings in a real way. You don't have on the list, 'talk to your partner about how you feel.'

As you all point out, we're all human with imperfections, vices, etc. etc. And by no means do I want to put myself in the category of "normal" (god forbid). But it's been at least a decade since I've exploded or vented or ranted when angry, and this has taken away nothing of my authenticity or humanity. I genuinely believe in the research and strategies out there that make it possible for people to avoid getting explosive.

 

[somerandomguy]

I genuinely believe in the research and strategies out there that make it possible for people to avoid getting explosive.

Maybe. But expecting this out of other people all the time may end up severely disappointing you and closing you off from otherwise good, safe people - which is completely your choice, of course.

 

[Friday]

@Friday, to be honest with you, your list of coping mechanisms seems to me to be all related in the sense that they are ways to avoid addressing one's feelings in a real way. You don't have on the list, 'talk to your partner about how you feel.'

Because they are NOT coping mechanisms.

They’re bad reactions.

People simply have a very finite number of reactions when they’ve hit their limit

When people snap? They snap in very predictable ways. And the fallout from that? Is equally predicitble. Not everyone snaps into anger or tears when they’re overwhelmed, although those are two of the most common.

 

[user27357]

Anger has it's purpose.

In angers defense I could point out times when I was angry enough to do something that needed to be done and I was glad for having done it- the last word in that sentence should be FINALLY!

And times when anger stopped a bad situation from getting worse.

More times when it did no good at all

Still more times when it caused more problems

I think basically that I (we) have a problem with adrenaline. It's not my spleens fault when my mouth goes into spasms and I cause a bigger mess due to anger running the show. ITS MY BRAIN NOT DOING IT'S JOB.

Adrenaline serves a purpose, so does anger, so does restraint.

Expecting anyone to get the job done with a few tools missing just isn't fair. I accept my own anger, i accept that other people get angry, I expect it and respect it.

and mishandle it, often. Try

 

[PreciousChild]

Didn’t mean to sound critical, so sorry if it came off that way. My mother’s aggressive communication style has been the topic de jour for me and my T for a few weeks now, and I rambled on a bit because I’m currently working through issues around anger and aggression myself!

Thanks for contextualizing, @Sideways. I always appreciate your comments, and look forward to more in the future. Yeah, anger is a sensitive topic for me too. I feel like it brings out stuff because it's about deep felt needs at the core and about the ways we've protected ourselves (by lashing out, etc.). It's not an easy topic to talk about.

 

[grit]

Things like this, you cannt run into research outcomes. You are not running an organization.
Find your peace in anger uniquely suited for your unique relationship. You cannt throw research says to get out of situations. That is not how intimate relationship works.

You know how some people always date men who cheat or vice versa... Anger is the same. If you find it is on the surface, then it is for you not every man you meet. And you will find men with anger meaning they are mirroring you.

I feel you are close to turn fundamentally cause here we are having intense discussion.

 

[PreciousChild]

@enough, I think you're right that anger goes both ways. My T thinks that anger is merely a signal of something wrong. Figuring out what is wrong and what to do about it can be influenced. Yelling and ranting are not inevitably linked to that.

I like your thought about the spleen. Makes a good point.

I totally sympathize with your view that it's not fair to expect someone to get the job done with missing tools. Also a good way to capture the point. In the past, if I got triggered in a certain way, I would get blindly explosive. I would yell until I couldn't anymore. My ex bf revealed himself to be such a person after trying hard to suppress his anger in the year and a half I was with him. Towards the end, he couldn't control his rage anymore, and he ranted about every little thing. I was willing to work with that even, and I understand where it comes from. I do think I come off a little judge-y, and maybe that's because after decades of therapy and the hard work of healing, I'm less tolerant of the exhausting and often futile exchanges of yelling and venom. But what I want isn't perfection. I just want my potential partner to know that I think there are better ways than how most people in our culture deal with anger. I feel that in our culture, we have a presumption of anger as a dichotomy of suppression or explosion. Obviously suppression is unhealthy, and then people try to say that the alternative is to "let it all out" and see erupting as liberating. But I think that the real alternative is to address it in a meaningful way through genuinely confronting what is wrong and working through it. But these are choices, and I do think that at certain stages of ptsd, we can feel powerless to the rage that comes up. What I want from a partner is maybe a goal that we could work through it versus a philosophy that thinks that eruption is the only way. Some people on this board see it as the only authentic expression of anger.

Here is an article about the Inuits who see the control of anger as a given for a mature parent. I don't think control has to be oppressive, suppressive, or inauthentic. How Inuit Parents Teach Kids To Control Their Anger

 

[PreciousChild]

Maybe. But expecting this out of other people all the time may end up severely disappointing you and closing you off from otherwise good, safe people - which is completely your choice, of course.

I'm not looking for perfection. My T thinks that I was basically floating the idea that anger can be talked through versus taking turns ranting at each other, and she thinks it will plant in his mind an idea that we will probably return to once we have our first fight. We can then see if we can navigate a more gentler way to negotiate what we need. Btw, my boyfriend has told me some time ago that his ex was a yeller, who explodes. I think they both use this style, so I wanted to see if he'd be open to trying something different when the time comes.

 

[PreciousChild]

By the way, I was worried that my bf would be put off by our discussion on anger, and he did seem to have some sort of reaction to it. That was Sunday. I saw him today, and we were happy as could be to see each other and had a nice time. I tend to be HV about the things I say and do in a relationship because my dad would sometimes severely punish me for the most random, innocuous things. I felt like my world could literally end just by saying the wrong word, or once chewing my food too slowly.

 

[Friday]

I feel that in our culture, we have a presumption of anger as a dichotomy of suppression or explosion. Obviously suppression is unhealthy, and then people try to say that the alternative is to "let it all out" and see erupting as liberating. But I think that the real alternative is to address it in a meaningful way through genuinely confronting what is wrong and working through it.

Out of curiosity.... Do you get that’s what most of us have been saying?

That the choice isn’t between explode or suppress, that there are a lot of different ways people experience, deal with, and express anger... that are totally healthy, functional, & sustainable? That never rises to the level of out of control, much less abuse?