Deemed "untreatable."

[Animalliberator]

Sorry Animalliberator, however it is hard for me to find sympathy when on the other forum you posted that you didn't buy into the "hippy-dippy" theories like Somatic therapy. You protest to want an answer but are unwilling to listen because it doesnt fit into the mold of what you accept as reasonable.

Actually, I'm very open to different therapies. As I noted in a another thread, I went for 15 EMDR sessions and tried to put any skepticism I had about the practice aside. I've also taken nearly every anti-depressant available. None provided relief. I've also read the book, "Feeling Good" - twice - and did all the exercises in the book.

But SE seems a bridge too far for me. My SE therapist has asked me to concentrate on my feet touching the floor and feel how my back feels against a chair. And in Dr. Levine's book, "Waking the Tiger," he suggests exercises like feeling the water on one's body in the shower. That's not therapy. That's utter quackery.

 

[Animalliberator]

Did you come here to really brainstorm ideas or to garner sympathy? I mean a guy who has had 50 types of therapy and has deemed a therapy that others here have found to be helpful to be 'hippy-dippy' surely has done his homework.

I came here to ask for advice. Look, some people find praying to broccoli helpful. I don't judge what works for them. But I've been to three SE sessions and, thus far, it seems like complete nonsense.

I recently went to the dentist. I was very skeptical sedation would work on me since I'm extremely hypervigilant. But as doubtful as I was about sedation it knocked me out cold while the dentist did her work on my mouth. So one's attitude about a particular treatment shouldn't really matter IF the therapy actually works. One can be highly skeptical - as I was at the dentist. But if it works, it works no matter the mindset of the patient. If SE is so effective it should work on an individual regardless of their hesitation.

 

[Animalliberator]

I am sure that you will think I am the devil, but I assure you that I am only saying this to give you another perspective.

I don't have an opinion about you one way or the other. I certainly don't think you are the "devil." I don't know you. I disagree with some of the assertions you've made about me. But I welcome advice and suggestions.

I only speak from my personal experience with various therapies, including SE. Again, if it is such a great form of therapy it should work on anyone, regardless of any skepticism they may have for the practice. If it works, it works. For me, it has proved, thus far, to be downright silly.

 

[anthony]

Maybe you need to seek out a good, hard trauma therapist via some Googling and try them... maybe Prolonged Exposure may do the job for you, as you seem to be a grounded person already who wants some reality to slap them around the face instead of hocus pokus treatments. PE, when done by the right person, will slap you around the face with your own reality to look at what needs changing and what doesn't.

 

[Rumors]

I disagree animal. Sedation is just that, a drug that is used to sedate you. Regardless of your skepticism, when given a sedative it knocks you out, period and especially if given enough. However, when you enter into a thought process with the attitude it is "utter quackery" then you have doomed yourself to failure.
I have never done somatic therapy, however I find your inability to be open in your thought process the reason for your 50 failures. It will continue to fail as long as you continue to try and control the process. When you get real with yourself and realize you are a slave to your negative thoughts, you might make some progress. The only person you are fooling here is yourself and you are wasting your own time. Have you ever once considered that the failures you have had in therapy have one consistent player? YOU! Get real, man!!! You want advice? Here it is, get real with yourself!!! I don't know if you are just afraid to relinquish control, or if you have trust and abandonment issues, or if you are so narcissistic that you believe you know more than the rest of them, but whatever it is I can promise you one thing, it isn't working! So, if I were you I would try something completely different! My thought is that you feel out of control if you do something that isn't in your comfort zone or that can't be defined in black and white clearly enough that you can feel safe. I get that but I do know there is a lot of grey area in healing!

Best of luck! I am not sure you are really ready to listen and take a deeper look because all this other stuff is smoke and mirrors and excuses. If you REALLY want to get better, you simply must take a real and authentic look at yourself and your choices.

 

[Lost Pup]

My SE therapist has asked me to concentrate on my feet touching the floor and feel how my back feels against a chair. And in Dr. Levine's book, "Waking the Tiger," he suggests exercises like feeling the water on one's body in the shower. That's not therapy. That's utter quackery.

This is the second time you've come around to describe SE as "utter quackery." An interesting choice given that, if you've read much here, you are probably aware that SE has greatly helped other people here. I can't help but notice that you are not speaking from your own experience, ala "I respond to SE by feeling like its ridiculous, unsubstantiated, etc." but, instead, have to totalize it into something that is not only ineffective but "quackery" which is a very charged word often used to aggressively debase non-allopathic forms of medicine.

I find this particularly ironic because in the passage I've quoted, you are describing the simplest of mindfulness exercises that are used to accentuate the fundamental experience of being in one's body. Having an opinion about these things is great and we all do but I find it very sad to read someone on a board where people come in pain, seeking healing and shared experience, attacking a sweet, simple exercise that was very profound for me early on (feeling the water on my body) so aggressively. Helped me dramatically, once I got past my anger and aggression and judgment. I think I would have died if I had not been able to break that wall which, for me, was really about shame and self-hatred.

I really do believe Trauma is innately located in the body. It is stored there, regardless if you believe this is because your body simply remembers certain nervous system responses or if you believe it is because trauma is like a substance stored at a cellular level. And, although things are improving, most allopathic medicine continues to treat the body as a largely mechanical entity, divorced from the mind or consciousness. You seem to believe the body is somewhat mechanical too, to some measure, based on your example of sedation working despite your beliefs about it. And yet trauma just cannot be processed or healed in this manner because it is immune to the mind/body split.

So, while I don't bear any ill will and I'm sure you're a good person, it is hard for me to imagine how you can ever get real help when the expertise of the people most able to help you is deemed not worthy of your trust or respect. Echoing Rumors, I have to say that I also have the emotional response of thinking I detect, in your words, a certain amount of pride or fixed self-identification with the idea you are the worst of the worst, untreatable, so f-d up that noone can help you etc. Maybe its just me misunderstanding, but I feel that way when I read your words.

Still, if it is what you want, I genuinely hope you encounter a 51st therapist in whatever modality is best for you and I hope they are able to ease your suffering.

 

[Animalliberator]

Maybe you need to seek out a good, hard trauma therapist via some Googling and try them... maybe Prolonged Exposure may do the job for you, as you seem to be a grounded person already who wants some reality to slap them around the face instead of hocus pokus treatments. PE, when done by the right person, will slap you around the face with your own reality to look at what needs changing and what doesn't

I've never heard of Prolonged Exposure therapy, Anthony. Thanks for the recommendation. Perhaps I will ask my talk therapist about it.

 

[Animalliberator]

However, when you enter into a thought process with the attitude it is "utter quackery" then you have doomed yourself to failure.

We will have to agree to disagree, Rumors. I believe if something works, it works, regardless of the attitude of the individual receiving it.

I have never done somatic therapy, however I find your inability to be open in your thought process the reason for your 50 failures. It will continue to fail as long as you continue to try and control the process. When you get real with yourself and realize you are a slave to your negative thoughts, you might make some progress. The only person you are fooling here is yourself and you are wasting your own time. Have you ever once considered that the failures you have had in therapy have one consistent player? YOU!

Again, I would respectfully disagree, Rumors. I have been very open to most therapies I've tried, including EMDR, CBT, talk therapy, group therapy, and medications. None worked despite my best efforts. I put in a lot of time and patience with EMDR (endured 15 sessions of it) and it provided no relief.

Get real, man!!! You want advice? Here it is, get real with yourself!!! I don't know if you are just afraid to relinquish control, or if you have trust and abandonment issues, or if you are so narcissistic that you believe you know more than the rest of them, but whatever it is I can promise you one thing, it isn't working! So, if I were you I would try something completely different! My thought is that you feel out of control if you do something that isn't in your comfort zone or that can't be defined in black and white clearly enough that you can feel safe. I get that but I do know there is a lot of grey area in healing!

First, Rumors, no need to shout at me or hurl pejoratives like "narcissist" around. Just because I have a different perspective about SE than some on this board doesn't mean I've not been real with myself in therapy. On the contrary, I've been quite open in therapy. So much so that the feelings and thoughts I expressed seemed to frighten a few therapists to the point where they terminated my sessions. Mind you, I have never acted violently. In fact, most view me as a gentle, compassionate person. I opened up to therapists about violent thoughts. And what did I get in response? They slammed the door in my face

My thought is that you feel out of control if you do something that isn't in your comfort zone or that can't be defined in black and white clearly enough that you can feel safe. I get that but I do know there is a lot of grey area in healing!

My skepticism about SE has nothing to do with it being outside my comfort zone. It has to do with my personal experience with it, as well as the extensive reading I've done about the practice. There is little scientific study of the therapy. Few peer reviewed studies have been published on it. Most of the evidence to support its use is either from Dr. Levine himself - the father of the SE school - or anecdotal. I'm a logical person. I need hard facts. Or, at the very least, proof from my own experience. Thus far, that experience has been disappointing. I have found no benefit from it.

 

[Animalliberator]

This is the second time you've come around to describe SE as "utter quackery." An interesting choice given that, if you've read much here, you are probably aware that SE has greatly helped other people here. I can't help but notice that you are not speaking from your own experience, ala "I respond to SE by feeling like its ridiculous, unsubstantiated, etc." but, instead, have to totalize it into something that is not only ineffective but "quackery" which is a very charged word often used to aggressively debase non-allopathic forms of medicine.

Perhaps SE has benefited others. I can only speak from my own experience with it, Lost Pup. And that experience has been frustrating. I've left each of the three SE sessions I've had thinking it was a waste of time and money. I used the term quackery because I fail to see how thinking about how my feet feel on the floor does anything to help me or anyone else with mental illness. It makes little sense to me.

I find this particularly ironic because in the passage I've quoted, you are describing the simplest of mindfulness exercises that are used to accentuate the fundamental experience of being in one's body. Having an opinion about these things is great and we all do but I find it very sad to read someone on a board where people come in pain, seeking healing and shared experience, attacking a sweet, simple exercise that was very profound for me early on (feeling the water on my body) so aggressively. Helped me dramatically, once I got past my anger and aggression and judgment. I think I would have died if I had not been able to break that wall which, for me, was really about shame and self-hatred.

That is wonderful, Lost Pup, that such an exercise helped you. Feeling the water on my body did nothing for me, other than reminding me how much extra water I was using. I've tried the exercise a number of times and have not felt any "healing." I've only felt foolish wondering why I was standing underneath the showerhead for so damn long.

I really do believe Trauma is innately located in the body. It is stored there, regardless if you believe this is because your body simply remembers certain nervous system responses or if you believe it is because trauma is like a substance stored at a cellular level.

And you have a right to believe that, Lost Pup. I don't give the theory much credibility, though. And that is my right.

So, while I don't bear any ill will and I'm sure you're a good person, it is hard for me to imagine how you can ever get real help when the expertise of the people most able to help you is deemed not worthy of your trust or respect. Echoing Rumors, I have to say that I also have the emotional response of thinking I detect, in your words, a certain amount of pride or fixed self-identification with the idea you are the worst of the worst, untreatable, so f-d up that noone can help you etc. Maybe its just me misunderstanding, but I feel that way when I read your words.

First, any individual in my life, and especially a therapist, has to earn my trust. I don't blindly have faith in people. Just because a therapist has a bunch of degrees above his/her desk doesn't mean I should buy what they are selling. There are plenty of degreed snake oil salesmen in psychology. (For instance, I once visited Santa Fe, New Mexico and came across a local hippy rag that had ads for holistic therapies. One such therapy - which cost $250 a pop - was "color puncture." Essentially, the therapist had a client lie on a table and shined the equivalent of Christmas lights on them. I certainly wouldn't respect any therapist who was peddling such silliness.) In addition, you are absolutely wrong that I have any pride in being deemed "untreatable." I very much want to get better. But a particular therapy has to pass the smell test. If it smells fishy - and SE certainly has that feel to me after going to a few sessions - then it probably is fishy. Great that it worked for you and others. But just because it proved effective for you doesn't mean it is actually effective. Placebos work for some people, too. Doesn't mean that they should be used to treat people with illness.

 

[anthony]

You need a PE therapist though, not any therapist who just attempts to deliver it. It is a trauma focused exposure therapy and it will keep you level headed and focused to what the issues are and what to do about them... you have to do though, not just talk in therapy. If you fail the doing aspect both in and out of therapy, then it is you and not the therapy, that is the larger problem. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The same analogy sits true for therapy, in that you can do therapy, but if you don
t give your 110% to it, try it and let yourself go within it, then it will do nothing for you, regardless the therapy type.

 

[Abstract]

I am not surprised you have received some the response you have here. I think you are showing one of the things that sabotages therapy for you. The rigid thinking and lack of being able to fully commit yourself to a treatment is going to sabotage you badly and set you up for failure.

It's not about having to agree with others about a particular treatment as we are all unique but rather about looking at the big picture and what you can change.

Have you ever done a DBT skills group long term? They normally run for a year and people who are particularly resistant to treatment seem to need a second round.

You didn't answer me at all so I am re asking.

Especially since it seems it is interpersonal issues that are stopping you from being able to engage in long term therapy in a way that will help you get better. What reasons do the T's give to you that this is not working? One is that you are too difficult. Can you describe a situation that shows what that looks like for you? Do you accept that treatment almost always makes us feel much worse and more symptomatic and for a long time? It seems to me you are expecting to feel better after just 3 sessions of trying something.

I am temped to join in about somatic therapy but I don't think there is any point. You certainly aren't obliged to find something helpful because others have. It's main relevance here is that it reveals your thought processes. It's unfortunate as it seems EMDR was overwhelming and something like somatic therapy is usually just the right thing as it allows one to pace things well.

If things have not worked in the past I believe it is up to us to ask ourselves honestly what is blocking us that we can change. That is what I am working on at present. Different things work for different people and that is fine but when we repeat a pattern we need to open our eyes and look at things clearly.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

What you call "quackery" is otherwise called grounding, aka PTSD treatment 101. If you're not open to learning grounding techniques then to be honest, you don't want to heal.

Comparing sedatives to therapy techniques....well, not a comparison at all. They work in completely different ways. Therapy doesn't just fix us with no effort and a large part of effort is simply believing that the therapy can help you. Medications on the other hand, they work regardless of our opinion on them. If not they'd simply bd placebo pills!

Edited, yet again, to add....

I can see MANY flaws in your thinking that would be corrected by CBT, that is IF you were truly open to CBT. Mant therapists say they're trained in CBT but at the end of the day they pass very few of these skills on to their clients. If you haven't been in a therapeutic setting that was like a classroom (individual or group) where you were literally explained each of the concepts, and did exercises to explore each if these concepts, I don't think you've done CBT. I find it really hard to believe that CBT hasn't helped you, and like I said before, I see quite a few fatal flaws in your thinking that could be helped by CBT if you were actually open to it.

I've been in quite a few treatment programs. You know what sets apart those who are one timers from those who repeatedly come back? Their belief that therapy will in fact help them and their positive attitude toward healing. I don't see that here.

Yes, many if us have stubborn cases of PTSD but after 50 failures I think it's time to stop blaming the therapists and the therapy. The only common denominator was you.