It sounds like you’re quite clear that it was abusive - I do think you’re trying to figure something out for yourself, but I don’t think the abusive nature of what she did is where your question lies.
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Childhood Being hit with a hair brush-abuse?
- Post starter Scarlet13
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I don’t know if this will help you but it’s something I’m in the middle of just now.
I was in an incredibly abusive situation. I cognitively know it was abusuve, it’s an area I have training in and know that I know it was abusive. But. Accepting that this person in this situation was abusive to me, that they chose to hurt me, that they knew exactly what they were doing - while saying they loved me, and in some cases acting like they loved me - that’s very very hard to take. So I know but I don’t “know”, still make excuses and still look for signs that it wasn’t abusive all while knowing it was. Joining those dots up for me is excruciating.
I don’t have any answers as to how to process it but wondered if it might help.
I was in an incredibly abusive situation. I cognitively know it was abusuve, it’s an area I have training in and know that I know it was abusive. But. Accepting that this person in this situation was abusive to me, that they chose to hurt me, that they knew exactly what they were doing - while saying they loved me, and in some cases acting like they loved me - that’s very very hard to take. So I know but I don’t “know”, still make excuses and still look for signs that it wasn’t abusive all while knowing it was. Joining those dots up for me is excruciating.
I don’t have any answers as to how to process it but wondered if it might help.
Cactus Bloom
Silver Member
I just want to make myself clear and I do agree this should be on its separate post but I’d like to address some statements you made about some of my posts that I want to make clear. First of all, I included these quotes so you can see that in my own way I am completely agreeing with you and have made it clear that science and technology is proving the role trauma plays out in our lives and the massive problems we are dealing with as a human race. When I said “Sometimes I believe being human is abuse” I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I “...implies you’re saying hitting kids is human? If you’re a human, you have no choice, you’re gonna hit a kid at some point?” You see my quote where I say how chronic stress is finally being connected to many illnesses that hadn’t been connected before? This is also through research that while in the womb, the stress hormone, cortisol, from the mother floods the babies brain which can shrink the hippocampus and amygdala before the baby is even born. Baby is already starting off with a possible disadvantage with no fault of it’s own but also to no fault of the stressed mother either. I’ll take the example of someone maybe you have heard of and if not I’m sure you would love Gabor Mate because he’s been saying this stuff for years. His parents were trying to survive the holocauste (spelling) so you can imagine how much stress his mother was experiencing while pregnant with him and to save his life when I believe he was maybe a year old, she had to give him to a relative but later was reunited with his family again but Gabor suffered the consequences of this extreme stress through no fault of the parents. That’s why being human is abuse. Having surgery as a child can cause PTSD. Like I said before, religion can cause PTDS and yes, it is awful and I don’t know how else to say it because I’m not so good with putting words down but it’s not fair that I have suffered so much from it when my siblings did not. Of course it’s because of the temperament I was born with and my environment and my being had to “survive” by splitting off personality parts which as you know, is what the primitive survival mechanism does automatically to protect the human. Did I have a choice? No!
Winding down...I’ve studied and have done the research and agree with you. Of course there’s always going to be controversy about so many things and I would like to point out that science is not always fact! This is the BIG PROBLEM! This is why many people will and do dismiss “facts” because who is telling the truth? I switched from putting blind faith into the religion I was raised in and believed in god to atheist and putting blind faith into science. Blind faith is not good for anything no matter what. I do not trust the “facts” of psychology and psychiatry because of learning the so called “fact” of the chemical imbalance theory is not based on any scientific proof whatsoever yet, it has been pushed on us as fact. There are reasons people are skeptical and it’s extremely difficult to navigate all the misinformation and many people don’t have the time or energy or desire to change. Stop the stress and trauma so we have healthy brains and relationships. I have no more words or thoughts in my brain and I apologize for my lack of intelligence to try to make any sense.
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Yes that does help, thanks.
My mother always touted her mothering abilities, so that is in my head. In fact I got punished for not respecting HER enough.
So, being hit with an object seems abusive to me just like when she would freeze me out or not take me to the doctor. Those things are all abusive. I think its interesting how the "hit with an object" post garners so many diff opinions.
Abuse is complex to understand and is not simple.
For example, my mother did not mean to abuse me nor was she aware. She was just blind. That does not excuse it, but makes it complicated to cipher through.
blackemerald1
VIP Member
@Fionas74 I agree with you. It is not easy navigating between the fields of commons sense, psychology & science. We learn as we go along.
I was raised when the field of psychology was unfamiliar. I knew of these 'homes' where people were locked up and I guess there were a lot of adults I didn't know about who were locked up in prisons.
Children suffered the most during these times and ended up in homes usually run by some sort of religious organisation. Unfortunately, only now after many, many years the truth about how they were treated has finally come to light and there is now a lot of re-shuffling of positions of 'there was no child abuse' to how much compensation each victim should receive. Of course nothing can compensate them, it is simply a token monetary acknowledgement of a entire child welfare system that didn't adapt, didn't care and possibly the notion of the rights of the child were simply non-existent.
In sixty or so years the pendulum has swung towards children having rights. Who knew? Well we all knew but it was never acknowledged. Nor by everyone even today.
This is an academic argument though. But I get where you are coming from. We are all really products of our parents both genetic and then the long process of raising children to adults.
Historically, parenting was left to parents and it did not always bring about healthy, happy families and children. Parents, marriage, the family home were historically considered off limits to anyone but the head of the house-hold. (Men) Only the most extreme circumstances came to the notice of authorities.
It wasn't brain scans or blood tests that resulted in the rights of a child being recognised. Nor was it some new age idea from the thousands of books written about how to raise a child.
It was a collective history of a rise in social standards, rise in economic stability, post Depression, post World War's and lots of other social changes that at the moment we take for granted I think.
If anything common sense must be applied when one is a parent. Psychology, science etc., have their place. As a lot of parents are finding out being a slave to one idea or another isn't necessarily going to work. It is all about balance. :)
I was raised when the field of psychology was unfamiliar. I knew of these 'homes' where people were locked up and I guess there were a lot of adults I didn't know about who were locked up in prisons.
Children suffered the most during these times and ended up in homes usually run by some sort of religious organisation. Unfortunately, only now after many, many years the truth about how they were treated has finally come to light and there is now a lot of re-shuffling of positions of 'there was no child abuse' to how much compensation each victim should receive. Of course nothing can compensate them, it is simply a token monetary acknowledgement of a entire child welfare system that didn't adapt, didn't care and possibly the notion of the rights of the child were simply non-existent.
In sixty or so years the pendulum has swung towards children having rights. Who knew? Well we all knew but it was never acknowledged. Nor by everyone even today.
This is an academic argument though. But I get where you are coming from. We are all really products of our parents both genetic and then the long process of raising children to adults.
Historically, parenting was left to parents and it did not always bring about healthy, happy families and children. Parents, marriage, the family home were historically considered off limits to anyone but the head of the house-hold. (Men) Only the most extreme circumstances came to the notice of authorities.
It wasn't brain scans or blood tests that resulted in the rights of a child being recognised. Nor was it some new age idea from the thousands of books written about how to raise a child.
It was a collective history of a rise in social standards, rise in economic stability, post Depression, post World War's and lots of other social changes that at the moment we take for granted I think.
If anything common sense must be applied when one is a parent. Psychology, science etc., have their place. As a lot of parents are finding out being a slave to one idea or another isn't necessarily going to work. It is all about balance. :)
blackemerald1
VIP Member
@Scarlet13 do you still have contact with your mother and her boyfriend?
It is very complicated when you are being manipulated as a child. We love to love our parents. That is what society tells us to do. Parents are the source of all things for so long as we are growing. It takes a long time to sit back and view one's parents with a balanced perspective.
In my own case I look at my mother particularly and so much of what she inflicted upon me as a child, she is still trying to do. I still love her though. But I am conflicted at times by her attempts to drag out the same tactics. I like to make my parents comfortable and contented in their elderly state. But at the same time I wish there had been a time when I could have asked why things were the way they were. I'm sure the truth is hidden in the way they were raised. I don't want to upset them with questions now.
Is there an opportunity for you to speak to your mother about how she was raised. Her personal history?
It is very complicated when you are being manipulated as a child. We love to love our parents. That is what society tells us to do. Parents are the source of all things for so long as we are growing. It takes a long time to sit back and view one's parents with a balanced perspective.
In my own case I look at my mother particularly and so much of what she inflicted upon me as a child, she is still trying to do. I still love her though. But I am conflicted at times by her attempts to drag out the same tactics. I like to make my parents comfortable and contented in their elderly state. But at the same time I wish there had been a time when I could have asked why things were the way they were. I'm sure the truth is hidden in the way they were raised. I don't want to upset them with questions now.
Is there an opportunity for you to speak to your mother about how she was raised. Her personal history?
Cactus Bloom
Silver Member
Thank you for your comment! So many of you articulate your thoughts and words so much better than I can and I really hate being human and don’t understand why anyone can hurt anyone. I do but don’t because I am not capable of doing anything to hurt anyone or anything ever.
Right. I will write one more post, a final one.
Note on science: it is not religion. It is not dogmatic. You do not need to trust it blindly. Questionning, proving and disproving things is kind of the point scientific method. Science evolves and autocorrects. Just because some research was dubious (like the medical imbalance one, or smoking studies that were proving that smoking wasn’t that bad back in the day) doesn’t mean all of the data gathered through scientific method is incorrect. You are allowed to question the methodology, the sponsors of the study and everything else. Obviously, smoking studies were often sponsored by tabacco manufacturers, and big pharma ran with the medical imbalance idea even though the evidence was inconclusive. However, if you go now to google scholar, or a reputable medical journal, there will be articles pointing this very fact out. So yes! It good that you question it! You’re not alone. There are no sacred cows, question everything.
But why did you make a conclusion that if one research is troubling we should ignore all else?
When in doubt – look at the sponsors of the study, the methodology, the criticism (peer-review), the general scientific consensus(what percentage of scientists agree with a certain point as a result of their research).
The consensus on negative effects of spanking is 93% globally right now (and it’s growing the more research is done). This is very, very high, especially for social science research. It’s consistent all over the map, across cultures. There is no big anti-spanking lobby(what would it even be?) sponsoring and falsifying the studies. It’s not a moot point and it’s definitely not new.
As a parent or a teacher we do a lot of things, not just spanking (if we do it), so we can’t really tell what is a contributing factor to what. We can’t look at say, 100 000 cases, and see the long term effects. But researches have done that. Many times. It comes back the same. Do you really think your personal, unbased opinion is more valid than this?
Negative effects:
- lower IQ, slower mental development
- lower self-esteem, more likely to have mental illness in the future
- higher risk of spousal abuse, child abuse in the future in their own families
- higher risk of alchoholism or drug abuse etc
It’s basically all that the conventional physical abuse gives you, but in slightly smaller amount. (Slightly is a key word. So not a cupfull of negative effects physical abuse leaves, but 2/3 or 3/4 of a cup. Not just a little bit you’d expect if you percieve spanking as something minor.)
Isn’t is scary that hitting/spanking kids is still a nonchalant discussion? In 2018?
Shall we go back and start discussing if hitting women is not abuse in some circumstances too? (In a well-meaning, kind-hearted way ofc).
You guys say you are providing psychological help to OP and others with the same question, and I’m sure your intentions are good. But are you helping? Are you all psychologists or psychiatrists? If not, and you’re someone willfully ignoring evidence and actually participating in the “sometimes it’s not abusive to hit someone” kafkaesque, twilight-zone-ish debate, do you think it’s helping?
If you, as a PTSD sufferrer, would disclose your condition to someone only to hear something like “Yeah, it doesn’t exist. You’re probably just too self-involved. Just get over it.” Than you’d say “Hey, there’s this mountain of scientific evidence and MRI scans of a person experiencing a PTSD attack and look this part shuts down so it’s clear thei’re re-experiencing it in the emotional and reptile brain and the neo cortex is off and…” – “Lol, science is just an opinion.”
Would that help you?
Or would it help you if your friend would ask you “Did you feel traumatised when X and Z happenned? Hmm. You know, I see how it’s traumatising for you, but some people wouldn’t be hurt by this. And actually it’s needed sometimes for our society to work.” <- this is actually even more toxic because you like that person, it’s your friend, and you know they’re well-meaning so you’re less likely to question their opinion and look into if X and Z are actually necessary.
I don’t think you’d get a lot of psychological help out of those conversations, would you.
So why are you sticking with an unfounded opinion that you’ve once made? You’re not something you believed about something once, or even things you did at some point in time. Just try to separate yourself from it and really look at it. You’re more than that. Making sh** decisions, just like evolving and changing opinion when you get more data, or learning new better ways to do things is human. It doesn’t mean you need to “hate” or “reject” yourself (or your grandpa or friend) for having believed or done something less than beneficial once. You did the best you could. When you know better, you do better. But like, how are you going to know better if you chose to remain willingly ignorant? When was the last time you changed your opinion on anything? And why? (Don’t answer to me, really. Just answer to yourself.)
And I know that some of you are against spanking, and know about prolonged stress effects, which is great. But seriously discussing if “it’s not abuse sometimes” makes me really suspect you condone it. Like, you wouldn’t stop it if you saw it. And it’s something I did for many years too, because I grew up in a country where it’s very normal.
If you came to my country you’d see military-parade-worthy columns of 30 four year olds following their kindergarten teacher and being absolutely silent at lunch. Outwardly you’d maybe think “Wow, they’re doing something right.”. You might see that kindergarten teacher spanking or yelling at a kid who took a step to the left out of that column to look at something. But you’d tell yourself “Well, who am I to judge if it works well.”. Because you want to be open minded and inclusive and you don’t want to be an arrogant westerner, so you’d rather doubt how civilized your own society is than pass judgement. I get it.
But is it really open minded to ignore the fact that that kindergarten teacher works for peanuts (often $30 or 40 per month), probably has another job on the side to somehow survive and feed her own kids, is constantly exhausted and innerly hates hitting and yelling at kids, but feels they need to do it because the management expects the perfect marching columns and absolute silence at lunch. She has no energy or time to doubt if those expectations of a roomfull of 4 year olds are actually valid and read books about child’s brain development and try out new methods.
Is it fair to assume the kids in my country are somehow tougher and suffer less from hitting or yelling by virtue of just being born in that country?
Amazingly, a lot of people where I come from believe it too. My former kindergarten co-workers, when I suggested to not hit or yell at kids if they drop and break something by accident, (usually a cup or a plate as we serve foor to 4 y.o.’s in non-plastic breakable plates in my country… and no-one questions it still). I also tried to do away with yelling, spanking, the sit-up’s and the standing-on-one-leg-with-arms-extended-till-the-teacher-says-you-can-sit punishments for talking at lunch. My kind, well-meaning colleagues would say “Awww, you’re so sweet and naïve. That’s the only way they can learn.” And if I’d meekly try to suggest that hey, in other countries they have different ways of doing things, my friends, my colleagues, would say “Aww. Well, we’re not in those countries. Our kids are tough, they only get force. You don’t want them to manipulate you and disrupt the whole day’s schedule, do you?”. So I did spend many years trying to follow the rules, trying to be part of the team, because well my colleagues were actually sweet well-meaning ladies. I didn’t spank but when my partner did it in front of me I said nothing. Sometimes I was even innerly grateful. Then one day one of the kids vomited in his plate of borsch during lunch. He felt sick when we sat down to eat, but he was afraid to speak up. My partner thought it was harmless and hilarious (after it turned out it wasn’t anything contagious or serious, he literally just stress vomited). So did the kid’s parents. But the inner voice in me went “Well, this can’t be right, can it?”.
In the country that I am now, no one expects 4 y.o’s to be absolutely silent during lunch. They wouldn’t dream of making a group as big as 30 kids with only one teacher and one teacher’s assistant. It’s 2 teachers per group here, but 8 kids per teacher.
No one expects 30 four y.o.’s to march in a perfect column. As I said, the groups here are smaller, and when they do go outside for a walk – two teachers go, not just one. They give the kids a rope with plastic doughnuts tied to it, so they can actually hold on to the doughnuts and walk and look around and chat and not get lost. The teachers hold the ends of the rope and steer the group. When I saw it… it blew my mind.
See, in my country I’m idealistic and quixotic. But here these ideas are actually used and they work. In my country, no one questions anything, expecially government-ran organizations like schools and kindergartens, the relationship with your superior is vertical, we do things the way they were done throughout the decades of soviet union, not much has changed since. So, I doubt we’ll be open minded to adopt something as radical as the rope trick any time soon, or even switch to plastic plates and cutlery.
So, it really scares me if someone from a country that objectively does better with kids (like, there’s less corporal punishment, less domestic violence, less mental illness among children, average IQ is higher, less suicide among minors etc etc) look at the way we do things and think our society is well-oiled.
There are objective ways to look at a society. (You don’t have to pass moral judgement btw, it’s not about that.). You can look at something like human rights risk index per country. If you grew up in a zone marked green or pale yellow, please, don’t look at my deep-red motherland and try to learn from us. Btw, most rich people in the red zones, like politicians and oligarchs, send their kids to the green zones to study, there’s a reason for that.
The example with the crying kid at a restaurant… Well in my country you’d get a stink eye from others and someone might even come up to you and say something like “Why don’t you slap your kid? You’re in public, control him.”. But, honestly, why do you care what they think?
You know, kids cry and have tantrums, dogs bark , grown people have burnouts and cry in public because their job is stressfull. That’s life. If someone isn’t mature enoguh to realize they will hear a crying kid when they go out somewhere, it’s their problem. It shouldn’t matter to you at all. Just concentrate on your kid’s needs.
You know, if I saw a hipster couple actually trying to talk to their kid, instead of slapping him, in my country – I wouldn’t be annoyed. I’d be elated. Of course it wouldn’t work – you can’t reason with a kid (sometimes you can’t even reason with adults either), especially during a tantrum. Their neo cortex isn’t formed yet, so even resoning on a good day is a gamble. But whatever budding neo cortex structures there are, they are completely shut down by emotional overwhelm. We can use that knowledge by showing how to cope with it – have them hit something soft like a chair, or teach them to scream(in pillows if possible) – those are the things you probably do when you have a hyper-arousal PTSD episode and you’re way above your window of tolerance. Btw in hyper-aroused, fight-or-flight response, our human brain switches off and we just ride the mammal and reptile brain, neurologically it’s similarly to a child’s tantrum. You can tell/show your kid “look, this happens to me too, this is what I do – let’s do it together” and show your couping, grounding techniques without judgement. going to get angry and frustrated and upset anyway, that’s part of life. Show how to productively deal with that. Give the emotions names, because they’re going to come back anyway. Don’t just judge them for having the emotions and teach them to suppress them. Have empathy. There’s a guy in my gym who carries a target boxing glove around, one of those flat ones, so he let’s his 6 y.o. hit it if he gets hyper or angry. I thought it was kind of brilliant.
Also, when you take a kid to a place like a restaurant or a shopping mall or something like this, yeah, it’s very likely they’re going to have a tantrum. (I take my 33 year old boyfriend shopping and he starts whining after 15 minutes.). It’s a new place, not part of the routine, filled with strangers, not much opportunity to run and play, they’re expected to sit in one place for a long time, the parents are probably socializing with other adults – all of those factors can trigger them. Losing that stuffed minion might’ve been the last straw. It’s not that the child is bent on ruining your day, or is having a tantrum to manipulate you and bend you to their will. You’re not at war. They’re not some machiavellian tactician trying to pull one over on you. They literally don’t have the parts of the brain yet that would allow them to do that. So if you just steer the rage or that strong emotion in a productive way, and then listen, really listen to what bothers them (it could be something tragic like the abovementioned missing minion, because they can’t express what’s really going on in them yet) without judgement or reasoning, more often than not this is all the kid’ll need. He’ll know you have his best interests at heart. Behind the missing minion could be anxiety, fatigue, boredom, so basically universal human needs like emotional safety, sleep or exercise. So after you took off the emotional charge, listened and guessed the needs you can think of what to do next, if you can fullfill these needs at that moment or there are other things you need to do first. Maybe your kid is often hyper and high-energy and there’s a gymnastics, ballet or wrestling circle you can sign him up for, so you’ll actually have more time for self-care and peace yourself. Either way, you will not be judging the kid or teaching him his emotions are wrong.
(And yes, I know the fake cry which obviously makes you think “This is bs, you’re not really crying. You’re annoyed and are waiting for my reaction.”. Even that is him/her trying to and not knowing how to communicate some need. )
I was stuck in the “they’re trying to ruin my day, we have this tight schedule, why can’t they just march in a column or be perfectly silent, omg I have to yell again” mindset for a pretty long time. I didn’t question if herding 30 4 year olds in a perfect column was a viable idea in the first place (Seriously, imagine doing it. Alone. My partner wasn’t there for the walks.), because I didn’t even think in this way. I just accepted it had to be done, could be done because my superiors said so, and the children were the problem, they were just misbehaving. That was truly a waste of time.
I’m not saying don’t take your kids anywhere, always have a nanny etc etc. Just don’t expect them to not have tantrums ever and be perfectly well-behaved. The frontal lobe and pre-frontal cortex aren’t formed yet, its just physically not going to happen.
And cut yourself some slack. I’m sure when you’re in a store and there’s a parent with a crying kid, you don’t instantly judge them, but you probably offer them to go ahead and check out in front of you. Because that stuff is hard. A lot of people understand it. You have your needs too. You’re tired, stressed, had a dy of work, and your own stress plus PTSD is a tough mix. And those who don’t and give you a stink eye, well, you can innerly flip them off or send them rays of sunshine and move on, what they think is their problem.
Dear OP and people with the same questions. I need to tell you that, even if there was no evidence yet, I’d still be on your side. I can imagine how you felt. Afraid, hurt, sad, confused, guilty, maybe angry. Your caregiver, who’s much stronger and bigger than you and seemed like an all-knowing god, came to you and hit you when you already were upset. Or maybe you were playful and loud, as kids often are, but your parent thought you were malicious and needed to be somehow “disciplined” by being hit. This is insane. Had your other done the same to another adult – that would’ve been assault. She didn’t know better, but it wasn’t your fault of course, and it doesn’t take away years of negative effects it caused.
It’s scary that we still live in a society where most people are more likely to stop a person hitting a dog than a person hitting their own child. It’s mind-boggling.
That inner voice you have that says “This can’t be true, can it?”, I have it too. And I validate it compltely. Look, we might be the minority on this board, or you might be alone in your community who has this voice of doubt, but don’t drown it. Follow it. Doubt is good. There’s a whole, huge world out there, and you will find people who emphasize with you completely, who have been through the same or are trying to learn about effects of hitting kids in the long run and other ways of parenting.
There are communities, schools and kindergartens who live without it for a while now and it works. There are places where a radical new idea of “not hitting others, especially kids” is not new or radical, but more of a common sense.
Even if you’re now not in sucha community and don’t have access to it, and don’t feel validated by your current community – it’s ok, it happenned to me too. There’s this thing called Asch conformity experiment, where a group of people are shown three lines of different lengths and are asked to point out the shortest one. Most of the group are actors, except fot one person who is an unwitting test subject. The actors all give a wrong answer. The real person is surprised, but after a while they agree. Because as humans we have a need to belong to the group, to not be seen as inconsiderate or insolent. And I did that for many years too, and was condoning light child abuse as “discipline” for many years too. I witnessed it a lot in my country and said nothing. Those years I really wish I could get back.
Sometimes a line is shorter than the other lines. Disagreeing with your current community is painful and frustrating and exhausting and scary (believe me, I know). People can be kind and smart and well-meaning but still be inadvertantly toxic by holding on to something obsolete or incorrect. You don’t have to morally judge them, but you can recognize that some things are what they are – not useful or beneficial. You only have one life and limited time in this world. You don’t have to spend it by trying to walk on eggshells around people and silencing that inner voice. It could very likely be your moral compass trying to show you a better way (I know in my case it was). Even your (online) community should be working for you, not against you.
If you still have that inner voice – there are books, researches and whole groups of people that use them and learn from them. (Reading about the types of things that happenned to me really helps me in recovery.) On this subject I’d read Murray Strauss “Behind Closed Doors” or “The Primordial Violence”. There are communities of parents and teachers who implement this research. There are communities of people learning the evidence-based parenting, you can google them and find a bunch of supportive people. There’s even a free EdX course “The Science of Parenting” with not just theory but applied techniques. If you join this course or something similar, you might meet fellow students and they can make a new, supportive, evolving community for you, that will not shut down or compromise your inner voice but rather provide info and answers. You can try always try it. If you don’t like it, you can move on to something else or comeback here.
Cheers ^^
Note on science: it is not religion. It is not dogmatic. You do not need to trust it blindly. Questionning, proving and disproving things is kind of the point scientific method. Science evolves and autocorrects. Just because some research was dubious (like the medical imbalance one, or smoking studies that were proving that smoking wasn’t that bad back in the day) doesn’t mean all of the data gathered through scientific method is incorrect. You are allowed to question the methodology, the sponsors of the study and everything else. Obviously, smoking studies were often sponsored by tabacco manufacturers, and big pharma ran with the medical imbalance idea even though the evidence was inconclusive. However, if you go now to google scholar, or a reputable medical journal, there will be articles pointing this very fact out. So yes! It good that you question it! You’re not alone. There are no sacred cows, question everything.
But why did you make a conclusion that if one research is troubling we should ignore all else?
When in doubt – look at the sponsors of the study, the methodology, the criticism (peer-review), the general scientific consensus(what percentage of scientists agree with a certain point as a result of their research).
The consensus on negative effects of spanking is 93% globally right now (and it’s growing the more research is done). This is very, very high, especially for social science research. It’s consistent all over the map, across cultures. There is no big anti-spanking lobby(what would it even be?) sponsoring and falsifying the studies. It’s not a moot point and it’s definitely not new.
As a parent or a teacher we do a lot of things, not just spanking (if we do it), so we can’t really tell what is a contributing factor to what. We can’t look at say, 100 000 cases, and see the long term effects. But researches have done that. Many times. It comes back the same. Do you really think your personal, unbased opinion is more valid than this?
Negative effects:
- lower IQ, slower mental development
- lower self-esteem, more likely to have mental illness in the future
- higher risk of spousal abuse, child abuse in the future in their own families
- higher risk of alchoholism or drug abuse etc
It’s basically all that the conventional physical abuse gives you, but in slightly smaller amount. (Slightly is a key word. So not a cupfull of negative effects physical abuse leaves, but 2/3 or 3/4 of a cup. Not just a little bit you’d expect if you percieve spanking as something minor.)
Isn’t is scary that hitting/spanking kids is still a nonchalant discussion? In 2018?
Shall we go back and start discussing if hitting women is not abuse in some circumstances too? (In a well-meaning, kind-hearted way ofc).
You guys say you are providing psychological help to OP and others with the same question, and I’m sure your intentions are good. But are you helping? Are you all psychologists or psychiatrists? If not, and you’re someone willfully ignoring evidence and actually participating in the “sometimes it’s not abusive to hit someone” kafkaesque, twilight-zone-ish debate, do you think it’s helping?
If you, as a PTSD sufferrer, would disclose your condition to someone only to hear something like “Yeah, it doesn’t exist. You’re probably just too self-involved. Just get over it.” Than you’d say “Hey, there’s this mountain of scientific evidence and MRI scans of a person experiencing a PTSD attack and look this part shuts down so it’s clear thei’re re-experiencing it in the emotional and reptile brain and the neo cortex is off and…” – “Lol, science is just an opinion.”
Would that help you?
Or would it help you if your friend would ask you “Did you feel traumatised when X and Z happenned? Hmm. You know, I see how it’s traumatising for you, but some people wouldn’t be hurt by this. And actually it’s needed sometimes for our society to work.” <- this is actually even more toxic because you like that person, it’s your friend, and you know they’re well-meaning so you’re less likely to question their opinion and look into if X and Z are actually necessary.
I don’t think you’d get a lot of psychological help out of those conversations, would you.
So why are you sticking with an unfounded opinion that you’ve once made? You’re not something you believed about something once, or even things you did at some point in time. Just try to separate yourself from it and really look at it. You’re more than that. Making sh** decisions, just like evolving and changing opinion when you get more data, or learning new better ways to do things is human. It doesn’t mean you need to “hate” or “reject” yourself (or your grandpa or friend) for having believed or done something less than beneficial once. You did the best you could. When you know better, you do better. But like, how are you going to know better if you chose to remain willingly ignorant? When was the last time you changed your opinion on anything? And why? (Don’t answer to me, really. Just answer to yourself.)
And I know that some of you are against spanking, and know about prolonged stress effects, which is great. But seriously discussing if “it’s not abuse sometimes” makes me really suspect you condone it. Like, you wouldn’t stop it if you saw it. And it’s something I did for many years too, because I grew up in a country where it’s very normal.
If you came to my country you’d see military-parade-worthy columns of 30 four year olds following their kindergarten teacher and being absolutely silent at lunch. Outwardly you’d maybe think “Wow, they’re doing something right.”. You might see that kindergarten teacher spanking or yelling at a kid who took a step to the left out of that column to look at something. But you’d tell yourself “Well, who am I to judge if it works well.”. Because you want to be open minded and inclusive and you don’t want to be an arrogant westerner, so you’d rather doubt how civilized your own society is than pass judgement. I get it.
But is it really open minded to ignore the fact that that kindergarten teacher works for peanuts (often $30 or 40 per month), probably has another job on the side to somehow survive and feed her own kids, is constantly exhausted and innerly hates hitting and yelling at kids, but feels they need to do it because the management expects the perfect marching columns and absolute silence at lunch. She has no energy or time to doubt if those expectations of a roomfull of 4 year olds are actually valid and read books about child’s brain development and try out new methods.
Is it fair to assume the kids in my country are somehow tougher and suffer less from hitting or yelling by virtue of just being born in that country?
Amazingly, a lot of people where I come from believe it too. My former kindergarten co-workers, when I suggested to not hit or yell at kids if they drop and break something by accident, (usually a cup or a plate as we serve foor to 4 y.o.’s in non-plastic breakable plates in my country… and no-one questions it still). I also tried to do away with yelling, spanking, the sit-up’s and the standing-on-one-leg-with-arms-extended-till-the-teacher-says-you-can-sit punishments for talking at lunch. My kind, well-meaning colleagues would say “Awww, you’re so sweet and naïve. That’s the only way they can learn.” And if I’d meekly try to suggest that hey, in other countries they have different ways of doing things, my friends, my colleagues, would say “Aww. Well, we’re not in those countries. Our kids are tough, they only get force. You don’t want them to manipulate you and disrupt the whole day’s schedule, do you?”. So I did spend many years trying to follow the rules, trying to be part of the team, because well my colleagues were actually sweet well-meaning ladies. I didn’t spank but when my partner did it in front of me I said nothing. Sometimes I was even innerly grateful. Then one day one of the kids vomited in his plate of borsch during lunch. He felt sick when we sat down to eat, but he was afraid to speak up. My partner thought it was harmless and hilarious (after it turned out it wasn’t anything contagious or serious, he literally just stress vomited). So did the kid’s parents. But the inner voice in me went “Well, this can’t be right, can it?”.
In the country that I am now, no one expects 4 y.o’s to be absolutely silent during lunch. They wouldn’t dream of making a group as big as 30 kids with only one teacher and one teacher’s assistant. It’s 2 teachers per group here, but 8 kids per teacher.
No one expects 30 four y.o.’s to march in a perfect column. As I said, the groups here are smaller, and when they do go outside for a walk – two teachers go, not just one. They give the kids a rope with plastic doughnuts tied to it, so they can actually hold on to the doughnuts and walk and look around and chat and not get lost. The teachers hold the ends of the rope and steer the group. When I saw it… it blew my mind.
See, in my country I’m idealistic and quixotic. But here these ideas are actually used and they work. In my country, no one questions anything, expecially government-ran organizations like schools and kindergartens, the relationship with your superior is vertical, we do things the way they were done throughout the decades of soviet union, not much has changed since. So, I doubt we’ll be open minded to adopt something as radical as the rope trick any time soon, or even switch to plastic plates and cutlery.
So, it really scares me if someone from a country that objectively does better with kids (like, there’s less corporal punishment, less domestic violence, less mental illness among children, average IQ is higher, less suicide among minors etc etc) look at the way we do things and think our society is well-oiled.
There are objective ways to look at a society. (You don’t have to pass moral judgement btw, it’s not about that.). You can look at something like human rights risk index per country. If you grew up in a zone marked green or pale yellow, please, don’t look at my deep-red motherland and try to learn from us. Btw, most rich people in the red zones, like politicians and oligarchs, send their kids to the green zones to study, there’s a reason for that.
The example with the crying kid at a restaurant… Well in my country you’d get a stink eye from others and someone might even come up to you and say something like “Why don’t you slap your kid? You’re in public, control him.”. But, honestly, why do you care what they think?
You know, kids cry and have tantrums, dogs bark , grown people have burnouts and cry in public because their job is stressfull. That’s life. If someone isn’t mature enoguh to realize they will hear a crying kid when they go out somewhere, it’s their problem. It shouldn’t matter to you at all. Just concentrate on your kid’s needs.
You know, if I saw a hipster couple actually trying to talk to their kid, instead of slapping him, in my country – I wouldn’t be annoyed. I’d be elated. Of course it wouldn’t work – you can’t reason with a kid (sometimes you can’t even reason with adults either), especially during a tantrum. Their neo cortex isn’t formed yet, so even resoning on a good day is a gamble. But whatever budding neo cortex structures there are, they are completely shut down by emotional overwhelm. We can use that knowledge by showing how to cope with it – have them hit something soft like a chair, or teach them to scream(in pillows if possible) – those are the things you probably do when you have a hyper-arousal PTSD episode and you’re way above your window of tolerance. Btw in hyper-aroused, fight-or-flight response, our human brain switches off and we just ride the mammal and reptile brain, neurologically it’s similarly to a child’s tantrum. You can tell/show your kid “look, this happens to me too, this is what I do – let’s do it together” and show your couping, grounding techniques without judgement. going to get angry and frustrated and upset anyway, that’s part of life. Show how to productively deal with that. Give the emotions names, because they’re going to come back anyway. Don’t just judge them for having the emotions and teach them to suppress them. Have empathy. There’s a guy in my gym who carries a target boxing glove around, one of those flat ones, so he let’s his 6 y.o. hit it if he gets hyper or angry. I thought it was kind of brilliant.
Also, when you take a kid to a place like a restaurant or a shopping mall or something like this, yeah, it’s very likely they’re going to have a tantrum. (I take my 33 year old boyfriend shopping and he starts whining after 15 minutes.). It’s a new place, not part of the routine, filled with strangers, not much opportunity to run and play, they’re expected to sit in one place for a long time, the parents are probably socializing with other adults – all of those factors can trigger them. Losing that stuffed minion might’ve been the last straw. It’s not that the child is bent on ruining your day, or is having a tantrum to manipulate you and bend you to their will. You’re not at war. They’re not some machiavellian tactician trying to pull one over on you. They literally don’t have the parts of the brain yet that would allow them to do that. So if you just steer the rage or that strong emotion in a productive way, and then listen, really listen to what bothers them (it could be something tragic like the abovementioned missing minion, because they can’t express what’s really going on in them yet) without judgement or reasoning, more often than not this is all the kid’ll need. He’ll know you have his best interests at heart. Behind the missing minion could be anxiety, fatigue, boredom, so basically universal human needs like emotional safety, sleep or exercise. So after you took off the emotional charge, listened and guessed the needs you can think of what to do next, if you can fullfill these needs at that moment or there are other things you need to do first. Maybe your kid is often hyper and high-energy and there’s a gymnastics, ballet or wrestling circle you can sign him up for, so you’ll actually have more time for self-care and peace yourself. Either way, you will not be judging the kid or teaching him his emotions are wrong.
(And yes, I know the fake cry which obviously makes you think “This is bs, you’re not really crying. You’re annoyed and are waiting for my reaction.”. Even that is him/her trying to and not knowing how to communicate some need. )
I was stuck in the “they’re trying to ruin my day, we have this tight schedule, why can’t they just march in a column or be perfectly silent, omg I have to yell again” mindset for a pretty long time. I didn’t question if herding 30 4 year olds in a perfect column was a viable idea in the first place (Seriously, imagine doing it. Alone. My partner wasn’t there for the walks.), because I didn’t even think in this way. I just accepted it had to be done, could be done because my superiors said so, and the children were the problem, they were just misbehaving. That was truly a waste of time.
I’m not saying don’t take your kids anywhere, always have a nanny etc etc. Just don’t expect them to not have tantrums ever and be perfectly well-behaved. The frontal lobe and pre-frontal cortex aren’t formed yet, its just physically not going to happen.
And cut yourself some slack. I’m sure when you’re in a store and there’s a parent with a crying kid, you don’t instantly judge them, but you probably offer them to go ahead and check out in front of you. Because that stuff is hard. A lot of people understand it. You have your needs too. You’re tired, stressed, had a dy of work, and your own stress plus PTSD is a tough mix. And those who don’t and give you a stink eye, well, you can innerly flip them off or send them rays of sunshine and move on, what they think is their problem.
Dear OP and people with the same questions. I need to tell you that, even if there was no evidence yet, I’d still be on your side. I can imagine how you felt. Afraid, hurt, sad, confused, guilty, maybe angry. Your caregiver, who’s much stronger and bigger than you and seemed like an all-knowing god, came to you and hit you when you already were upset. Or maybe you were playful and loud, as kids often are, but your parent thought you were malicious and needed to be somehow “disciplined” by being hit. This is insane. Had your other done the same to another adult – that would’ve been assault. She didn’t know better, but it wasn’t your fault of course, and it doesn’t take away years of negative effects it caused.
It’s scary that we still live in a society where most people are more likely to stop a person hitting a dog than a person hitting their own child. It’s mind-boggling.
That inner voice you have that says “This can’t be true, can it?”, I have it too. And I validate it compltely. Look, we might be the minority on this board, or you might be alone in your community who has this voice of doubt, but don’t drown it. Follow it. Doubt is good. There’s a whole, huge world out there, and you will find people who emphasize with you completely, who have been through the same or are trying to learn about effects of hitting kids in the long run and other ways of parenting.
There are communities, schools and kindergartens who live without it for a while now and it works. There are places where a radical new idea of “not hitting others, especially kids” is not new or radical, but more of a common sense.
Even if you’re now not in sucha community and don’t have access to it, and don’t feel validated by your current community – it’s ok, it happenned to me too. There’s this thing called Asch conformity experiment, where a group of people are shown three lines of different lengths and are asked to point out the shortest one. Most of the group are actors, except fot one person who is an unwitting test subject. The actors all give a wrong answer. The real person is surprised, but after a while they agree. Because as humans we have a need to belong to the group, to not be seen as inconsiderate or insolent. And I did that for many years too, and was condoning light child abuse as “discipline” for many years too. I witnessed it a lot in my country and said nothing. Those years I really wish I could get back.
Sometimes a line is shorter than the other lines. Disagreeing with your current community is painful and frustrating and exhausting and scary (believe me, I know). People can be kind and smart and well-meaning but still be inadvertantly toxic by holding on to something obsolete or incorrect. You don’t have to morally judge them, but you can recognize that some things are what they are – not useful or beneficial. You only have one life and limited time in this world. You don’t have to spend it by trying to walk on eggshells around people and silencing that inner voice. It could very likely be your moral compass trying to show you a better way (I know in my case it was). Even your (online) community should be working for you, not against you.
If you still have that inner voice – there are books, researches and whole groups of people that use them and learn from them. (Reading about the types of things that happenned to me really helps me in recovery.) On this subject I’d read Murray Strauss “Behind Closed Doors” or “The Primordial Violence”. There are communities of parents and teachers who implement this research. There are communities of people learning the evidence-based parenting, you can google them and find a bunch of supportive people. There’s even a free EdX course “The Science of Parenting” with not just theory but applied techniques. If you join this course or something similar, you might meet fellow students and they can make a new, supportive, evolving community for you, that will not shut down or compromise your inner voice but rather provide info and answers. You can try always try it. If you don’t like it, you can move on to something else or comeback here.
Cheers ^^
Last edited by a moderator:
Cactus Bloom
Silver Member
Thank you for your post. I didn’t make a conclusion that “if one research is troubling we should ignore all else.” And of course science is not religion. Another post should be made if you would like to continue this discussion because you take my words out of context because I will not use this thread for the time I need to fully express myself.
joeylittle
Sponsor
@Fionas74 - you are being very clear about your desire to discontinue the back and forth with @MoonCat. I suggest that you give yourself permission to stop engaging, also. You can use the ignore function, if it’s helpful.
@MoonCat - I’ve read all your posts, and you’ve stated your thoughts clearly and copiously.
I’d like to see the thread veer back towards the OP, now. If you have more to say on the general topic of corporeal punishment, please start a new thread.
@MoonCat - I’ve read all your posts, and you’ve stated your thoughts clearly and copiously.
I’d like to see the thread veer back towards the OP, now. If you have more to say on the general topic of corporeal punishment, please start a new thread.
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