News Do You Believe We Have Free Will?

[Kupo_Nut]

I feel that this argument is arguing against a few definitions of free will. Free will could be, having the free will to make decisions in ones own life and set of circumstances. Free will could also mean having the free will to turn oneself into an aeroplane. Free will does exist in the first definition, it definitely does not exist in the second. This is the kind of issue that is presented when 'omnipotence' is brought up. Can an omnipotent being create a stone too heavy for itself to lift? This kind of question is paradoxical and meaningless. We can create paradoxes with these rules and they still don't add up because of the definition.

Omnipotence doesn't have to mean the ability to do absolutely anything, it can be the ability to do anything within the bounds of logic and reason. Lack of definition leads to these paradoxes and they aren't helpful. Maybe this should be about what 'free will' actually means, instead of it's existence.

I think that this had been bothering me for a while about this debate.

Personally, I believe that our lives are not in our control, we can not change 'fate' (this being the argument that Sam Harris gives in a similar way) but we can choose things in between the things that are going to happen that are beyond our control, these being the decisions we make all the time, every day. Eg. What should I have for breakfast, should I go to university, what job should I apply for, should I talk to them or ignore them, should I lose/gain weight, etc. this is what I believe free will to be, the small things and big decisions that give our life meaning and can lead us to be better or worse.

 

[joeylittle]

You seem quite content to accept religious believers for their dogmas, and yet confrontational about my anti-theist attitudes.

Oh, no, I'm sorry - that's not what I meant.

All I'm frustrated with (and it's not at all in an intention to shut down debate) is that you are backing a set of freedoms that are contradictory. You put them out there as a "how would these be?" kind of question, and I'm just responding to those. If you read them as they are, they aren't as "live and let live" as you (seemed) to say they were. That's all. I'm debating the language and the use of it, not the point of view, which can be anything it wants to be.

Number 5 is simply stating that God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life. If that's what it takes for some people, that's all well and good. But, it isn't a criteria by which to judge everyone, because it is not necessary for all of us to live within that "framework" in order to achieve a full and meaningful life. It's not exclusionary. It's opening up the definition of a full and meaningful life to those of us who do not need God to do good and to experience awe and meaning, etc...

I think I get where we are missing each other.

You are starting from living in a God-dominated society, as if God is the default - and so then, yes, of course I believe that God is not necessary to live a full and meaningful life.

I'm starting from neutral, with no majority religion - and so then, yes, it is exclusionary because it excludes God from the equation (so it's exclusionary of folks who believe in God).

Honestly, I think that's the root of our missing each other on that stuff. Does that ring right with you?

Someone has control over you, there's no doubt that we are all controlled by our perspectives which are created under circumstances outside of our control, and which preclude us from seeing each new experience as unique. So, if what you say in the above quote is true, does it only hold true for an individual who is controlling your perspective or is it true also for the innumerable entities who manipulate our perspectives every day?

I think this is probably the main issue we differ on. I disagree; I do not see myself as controlled by my perspectives, because I believe it is my responsibility to choose my perspective constantly. I could let my perspective control me, if I did not take responsibility for it. But when you say that there is no doubt we are controlled by our perspectives, that's where my point of view diverges. I propose that we have absolute license over the way we see things. Each individual is ultimately responsible for crafting their viewpoint, moment by moment. That's just the way I think it works.

Now, I also don't think I'm right and you're wrong, because by my own admission, you are totally entitled to your viewpoint. But I don't think anyone can tell me that I cannot see each experience as unique, and I'm not sure how it could be proven.

Okay. So why are you still here talking? Do you want to shut down the whole conversation because you don't think it's relevant or useful? There are 7 billion people on this planet. A few of us are engaging in a conversation. So what? Add to your above list that some of us will talk about stuff rather than do anything about it. Add to it that some of us will pray about stuff rather than do anything about it, too. There are an infinite number of choices we may make... but how free are we to make other choices, that is the question.

I'm really not trying to shut down anything; honestly and truly. I'm expressing my opinion about Free Will, and the problems with how the debate itself intersects with the practical world. I apologize if I came off too strongly - but I think you may have read confrontation into what was only meant to be articulation of my opinion and critique of your argument as you presented it. At any rate, no, I'm not trying to shut anything down, and I am sorry that is how it appeared to you.

 

[Ladyghosthunter]

Every time I hear the words Free Will I will quote the lyrics:

There are those who think
That life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance
A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren't aligned or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill
There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotus Land
All preordained, a prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face, you can pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill
Each of us, a cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends with uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill



Read more: Rush - Freewill Lyrics | MetroLyrics

 

[Muzikluvr]

I believe that you are the only one who internalizes what you've lived in your life. No one else can know it. You are the only one who can make your life matter. You are the only being who can demonstrate your inner values and personal ethics to outsiders. You create your experience in this world, not because you have free will or control over every aspect of your life, but because you can change your experience in this world by changing your perception of the world. You have a lot of power in your life, even though you do not decide what choices you have to choose from.

It is up to you to choose appropriately from the choices you're given, and if those choices aren't satisfactory, then it is your responsibility to seek new choices through conversation, through education, through meditation, through any means available. You are accountable for every time you throw your hands in the air in frustration and choose an option that you know to be inferior. You are accountable for every time you limit someone else's choices to an either/or, when there are infinite options at their disposal if only they had more information.

As humans, we tend to look for patterns. We strive to understand situations so we can glide through life with an understanding of new situations at a glance. Every moment of every day could be different, if we didn't enjoy the comfort of familiarity. We lump people into boxes, defining them, labeling them, so we can know what to expect from them; but, people are all unique individuals and everyone will surprise you if you meet them under a completely different set of circumstances. Think of George Castanza saying "Worlds are colliding!", he was not the same person around his friends as he was around his fiancee. We feel comfortable showing a personality in front of some people, that we wouldn't show in front of others. We box ourselves in, too! We want to fit in with certain crowds.

We fit in, until we cannot fit in anymore. We resist change, even when it is killing us inside to repress our true selves any longer. Maybe we literally kill ourselves because we'd rather die than not fit in with the crowd we think is the only crowd we could ever be a part of... like, our families. It's so difficult to turn away from one's family, even when you're the black sheep. It's so difficult to "just" choose your own family from the friends you come across, because it's not their approval you've learned to seek your whole life.

No. I think we do not have "free will" because our will is limited in far too many ways, without our approval, without our knowledge, and by innumerable factors. We cannot gain enough knowledge or understanding to counteract all the limitations on the unexamined life. I just don't believe that true free will is necessary to be accountable for one's life.

The fact that my life was changed by trauma when I was so young, didn't mean that my life was over or that it is no longer as good. My life is still good, because I am still here and I can still choose what I want from it. I just have to be willing to face the assholes in life who would discourage me or disrespect me because of the traumas I've experienced, no... because the traumas I experienced are the kind that people would prefer not to believe, the kind people often excuse as soon as the victim turns out not to be so innocent, as if any bad choices in life mean that the victim some how had trauma coming her way. I need only understand that I am no less a person for claiming my own life experiences, without regard to others believing in them. I believe in them. If people are worthy of my friendship, then they will accept my life the way I live it. They will not excuse those who hurt me, just because my experiences cannot be proved. I stand in my own perspective, and I maintain it with the few facts I have, which are enough to validate my perspective. I may not be able to prove everything I say happened, but I can prove enough of it to invalidate the denial that my family lives in... and that is all I have... but it is enough to give me a backbone.

And, that, is my choice. I could choose to live in denial with my family again. That is my freedom. It is not free will. I am bound by more tangled webs than I can untangle. Time passes me by while I struggle to unwind what was twisted into knots without my knowledge or consent. A decade has passed, more misunderstandings have occurred, and even as I untwist the warped perspective I had, more perspectives are warped by the mere passing of time, and the presumptions that remain uncorrected... uncorrectable. I have choices, but they are limited in ways which I do not approve, nor understand.

Still, with the choices I have, I must strive to make my outer life as close to my inner life as I possibly can, not because it's moral, not because it puts others at ease (that's certainly not the result some of the time), but because it makes my life a happier experience. I enjoy being with myself more, when I strive to be the same me everywhere I go, including in my mind. My choices are clearer to me when I am one with myself, than when I am fitting in with others. I really don't need infinite choices to be happy. I only need the choices which I deem fair, and good. I wish I were more wise. I wish I could always be connected to myself, wherever I go, but it's just not possible. I am affected by society, by groups, by other people's wishes, just as you are. It takes a great deal of autonomy to empathize with others, and maintain your own perspective.

No. I don't think Free Will exists, but nor do I think it is necessary in the short, fast paced lives which we live. We couldn't choose quickly enough if we had infinite choices. Our society seems to depend, too much, on categories for cooperation. Surely we could cooperate without so many definitive types and groups, labels and titles which call to mind all the various traits to expect from each.