Forgiveness - Is This A Necessary Part Of True Healing From Abuse?

[Nicolette]

I'm not in denial... I'll be blunt one last time. Your goals are unattainable. Stop drinking the Kool-aid.

Whoa.... this is getting a little terse. Please take a break from this thread if you feel it is upsetting you.

 

[Shellbell]

I don't see why you need to tell her in such a way, that her goals are unattainable scaredoflonely. How do you know they are? Just because you feel that way does not mean you are right for everyone else.

Thank you Philippa for trying to explain to ScaredOfLonely what the aim of my thread was actually about. I appreciate that :hug:

You are right in saying that if the concept of forgiveness in my definition on the OP is not possible for one person, it doesn't mean it is not possible for anyone else.

 

[Philippa]

God, I'm so very sorry that happened to you shellbell. I've only heard about horror stories like being kidnapped and kept for years, and raped multiple times. I can't even begin to imagine how you must have felt. It' sreally upsetting to read that this happened to you. It's upsetting to read all the horror stories here.

 

[Shellbell]

Thank you for your kind words Philippa. It was a miracle I escaped that situation. And I am actually really thankful that I did escape it, some poor souls don't.

I think that's one of the things that heps me have a positive attitude towards my healing and what I hope I could achieve. Despite how horrendous it all was, I am thankful I survived it.

We are all survivors here.

 

[Queen Boudica]

The following is my experience with forgiveness and recovery.........

Brilliant post Muziluvr. Thank you for sharing. You have just summed up what I think I have been trying to work out myself and reading your post has really helped me. I think I need to digest it more.

I'm currently reading the book "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward where she talks about the Forgiveness Trap and how it can undercut your ability to let go of your pent-up emotions: "How can you acknowledge your anger against a parent whom you've already forgiven. Responsiblity can go only one of two places: outward onto the people who have hurt you, or inward into yourself. Someone's got to be responsible. So you may forgive your parents but end up hating yourself all the more in the exchange"

Despite orginally believing that forgiveness was neccessary for healing, she actually found in her experience as a therapist that forgiveness actually impeded the progress of recovery and found that many clients would rush to forgiveness to avoid the painful work of therapy and some of them thought that by forgiving they would be healed so they forgave, left therapy and then sunk deeper into depression or anxiety.

She states that there are two facets to forgiveness: "giving up the the need for revenge and the absolving the party of responsibility." Revenge is normal but very negative emotion and letting go of that is heatlhy, but the other facet of absolution is actually another form of denial "If I forgive you we can pretend that what happened was not so terrible" And this form can prevent people from getting on with their lives.

I think your post Muziluvr really adds to what I have read and was beginning to work out myself. Thank you.

 

[Tanishq]

I have started feeling uneasy. Every time I come back to read this thread because I know I can't take all insights in one grab. I make my mind to go ahead on forgiveness, Uneasiness increases. Does anyone feel like this? Before or after? :(

 

[Philippa]

Yes Lizio, in that sense of the word forgiveness, it would not be the best idea...especially before the person has even had a chance to get angry about what happened to them. I don't think anyone is disputing that here. I certainly am not, and I don't think shellbell has been saying this at all.

I can see how the word forgiveness would have that meaning to friends and parents who want their abused child to forgive them, and have recently experienced this myself with my own mother who put this on me, and it is for the reasons you spelled out...mainly so they don't have to fully appreciate and acknowledge what they have actually done and how it has impacted the person they profess to love.

Susan Forward writes some very good books, and I think she really knows alot about the process of healing and recovery.

 

[Philippa]

Here is a link I found that seems to have encapsulated what I think shellbell and myself have been trying to convey, which is not to excuse or pardon the people who abused us, or to say it's ok that they did, but to choose to release the neg emotions, once they have been acknowledged, and to do it for the person not for the people who hurt us.

Link Removed

I hope it can be received the way it is intended, and not the way many here interpret the word. I don't expect anyone to just read it and convert, or to even believe everything, but to read it with an open mind and take what bits stand out to them onboard, and leave the rest if they don't find it helpful or useful.

 

[Queen Boudica]

Yes Lizio, in that sense of the word forgiveness, it would not be the best idea...especially before the person has even had a chance to get angry about what happened to them. I don't think anyone is disputing that here. I certainly am not, and I don't think shellbell has been saying this at all.
.

I wasn't implying that either you or Shellbell were disputing this. I just read the book and thought it made sense it is helping me a lot come to terms with my abuse and thought that quoting what is in the book would help others, there was no intent to dispute anything written here, just add to it.

And I felt Muzilluvr's post really expanded on these ideas which I felt so helped me I wanted to comment and thank her. So I hope my response is not viewed as anything else.

 

[Philippa]

Yes, I thought about this after I posted it, and realized you were only expressing your feelings about the book and how it helped you, and also that you related to what Muzikluvr said in her post earlier.

There were a couple of things you said that made me think that you were thinking that forgiveness means what many dysfunctional emotional abusers think it means, which is, that it's to be swept under the rug in favor of moving on as though nothing happened, thus negating the persons reality...and given that a number of people have expressed that idea in this thread, thinking that is what we both were implying, I felt like I needed to say it again, and I guess I reacted in a defensive way.

 

[Muzikluvr]

Lizio, thank you so much for your post. I'm glad it helped affirm some of what you're already beginning to understand. I really appreciated your quote from the book. It supported my experiences and validated what has become my life's work... recovery.

Phillipa,

I have done all that is listed in the link to accomplish forgiveness. It is something that must be done repeatedly, and for each and every miniscule infraction. Even when I feel like I've accomplished it, I will find myself going round the same infraction or abuse again. It gets easier each time I face it because I remember feeling relieved when I felt validated by my own perspective.

It really has SO MUCH MORE to do with validating your own perspective, than with forgiving the other person. Seizing my right to choose to do what is in my best interests, based on my own perception, despite the fact that so many people think my dad and grandparents deserve "my forgiveness", is really key to reducing my stress and anxiety over the memories of what they did to me.

Yes, I said "so many people think my dad and grandparents deserve "my forgiveness"" And, I understand this is not the forgiveness that you speak of, but this is reality. The reality is that the world is full of pressure to forgive and reconcile, and that that pressure cannot be relieved by stating "I have forgiven them, but I refuse to reconcile with them." Because those who are pressuring come back with, "Then how do you know you've really forgiven them?"

I will never convince my parents, grandparents and most of the rest of my family PLUS, their friends and neighbors... and this one friend of mine from college who knows my family, and remembers their humor and kindness; that I have forgiven them, because I have not reconciled with them. I feel I must avoid them for my own well being. These nay sayers will cite that in avoiding my family, I am reinforcing an unhealthy pattern of cowardice and perpetuating the abuse I received in childhood. (A lot of the abuse surrounds the fact that my family and I are at odds. Me - constantly trying to get them to believe me, and protect me. Them - believing that I'm manipulating them to coddle me and forcing them to choose between me and their family.)

I still am forcing them to choose. I still expect them to hear me out. I still expect them to feel affronted that four adults in their family lied to them, and knew all along that I'd been sexually assaulted by dad's favorite uncle. I expect my family to stop sharing personal information about me with those family members. I expect them to stop seeking sympathy from outsiders regarding the issues they have with my relationship with them. I expect them to change their perspective, and to be responsible for their own choices.

So, it is ongoing trauma... you see?

All other traumas for me have dimmed to this simmering bubble called PTSD, picture it in the stress cup. It's really only a problem when I'm faced with certain triggers, and I've developed some good skills for reminding myself of the closure I feel about those traumas. Closure is a beautiful thing. Now, to figure out how to get closure on this whole idea of reconciliation.

My daughter asked about my grandparents last weekend. She is curious about my family. My dad believes he has every right to see her. I expect that when she goes to college, that my dad will try to contact her... introduce himself. One thing about my dad is that he is extremely charming. I believe he will undermine my relationship with her whenever he can (not to hurt me, it's not about me, it's about him and his ego, he can't handle me rejecting him so he will undermine me). I believe that she will confront me about keeping her from knowing such a doting grandpa. I must respect my own perspective. I must respect my own decision. I have made this decision repeatedly. I must avoid them. They are toxic. Will they abuse? I don't think so. I think they are just toxic and it will make me sick. But, I am my children's mother, and I must protect myself so I can be happy and available to my kids. If I am sick, and they have a doting grandpa who will tell them stories from his warped perspective of my childhood, then they will be a part of that toxicity that will make me sick. That's my reasoning anyway. I cannot risk dad turning my kids against me, as he turned everyone else against me in childhood.

My grandparents will die soon. They are getting quite old. They have had some recent health scares. When they die, I will find out in some random, inadvertent way. Like, one of the people who are a part of my husband's family will offer me condolences. OR, I may find out from my brother who may or may not be understanding of my position... but, will certainly express his sadness that we never reconciled. My father will die some day, and I fear I will feel desperation that I never went to him and calmly, rationally explained what I remember about the events of my childhood. So, again... uneasiness. If I have conviction about my position, then I will find closure. But, it's difficult for me to maintain my resolve without the anger I feel from the neglect and invalidation I received as a child.

Forgiveness is good and feels good, but I cannot let go of the protective layer of anger until I've committed myself to my own perspective, with regard to their opposing viewpoints, and with compassion and understanding for how they feel about my perspective. Otherwise, every time I am confronted with how bad they feel about me not reconciling, I will have to go over the decision again... and my protective anger will be invoked.

I have thought about sending my dad a card which tells him that I forgive him, that I love him, and that I hope he has a happy life. But, I don't know how to write such a card so that he can hear the goodbye in it, and won't contact me begging for another chance. It would only be to assuage my own feelings of sadness that he believes I am punishing him with my absence. And, it would likely result in him sending waves of guilt trips back to me. He would see it as a step toward reconciliation, when it is not. It is only a step toward open forgiveness, and love. Do you see how confusing it would be for him to receive that and still not get reconciliation from me?

The word forgiveness should never have been changed to mean letting go. IMHO, it causes too much anguish and confusion to use it in the "enlightened" context.

 

[Philippa]

It really has SO MUCH MORE to do with validating your own perspective, than with forgiving the other person. Seizing my right to choose to do what is in my best interests, based on my own perception, despite the fact that so many people think my dad and grandparents deserve "my forgiveness", is really key to reducing my stress and anxiety over the memories of what they did to me.

Oh, I agree completely, that validating ones own experiences and feelings and perspective, is extremely important. I have chosen to not speak to or have contact with my entire family because of my own perspective, so I know how important that is to heal. Forgiveness takes a back seat definitely when it comes to these sorts of decisions.

Yes, I said "so many people think my dad and grandparents deserve "my forgiveness"" And, I understand this is not the forgiveness that you speak of, but this is reality. The reality is that the world is full of pressure to forgive and reconcile, and that that pressure cannot be relieved by stating "I have forgiven them, but I refuse to reconcile with them." Because those who are pressuring come back with, "Then how do you know you've really forgiven them?"

Absolutely. There is nothing you can say to people who are working for an agenda that does not include your best interests. I'm going through this very thing at the moment with my own blood relatives.

I will never convince my parents, grandparents and most of the rest of my family PLUS, their friends and neighbors... and this one friend of mine from college who knows my family, and remembers their humor and kindness; that I have forgiven them, because I have not reconciled with them. I feel I must avoid them for my own well being. These nay sayers will cite that in avoiding my family, I am reinforcing an unhealthy pattern of cowardice and perpetuating the abuse I received in childhood. (A lot of the abuse surrounds the fact that my family and I are at odds. Me - constantly trying to get them to believe me, and protect me. Them - believing that I'm manipulating them to coddle me and forcing them to choose between me and their family.)

No, you will never convince them. I will never convince mine, shellbell will never convince hers, jaret will never convince his etc. Yes, I have had people say the same in regards to it being 'wimpy' of anyone who does not choose to stick it out and "learn to communicate better." so as to transform the relationships from the inside out, coming from the "create your own reality" mindset that is so popular these days. Usually these things are said by people who never had the same sort of issues or dysfunction with their own parents.

People who say these things have absolutely NO IDEA the sort of forces a person in your position is having to cope with, without even touching on feeling strong enough to stick around and communicate with people who are in denial and have sophisticated defense mechanism, who drive us crazy, literally. We all have every right to make sure we protect ourselves from further harm and if these people are not willing to look at changing, or their bad behavior, then we can hardly be expected to stick around for another serving of shit sandwich.

I still am forcing them to choose. I still expect them to hear me out. I still expect them to feel affronted that four adults in their family lied to them, and knew all along that I'd been sexually assaulted by dad's favorite uncle. I expect my family to stop sharing personal information about me with those family members. I expect them to stop seeking sympathy from outsiders regarding the issues they have with my relationship with them. I expect them to change their perspective, and to be responsible for their own choices.

I stopped expecting this, because it only leads to disappointment. It would be lovely if they had the character to move past their lies and manipulations...but they don't. I still want them to, but I know they never will.

So, it is ongoing trauma... you see?

Yes, I really really do. I am in the same sort of situation myself. And I'm certainly not saying that this can all be fixed by "just forgiving" and moving on...that is way too simplistic, and frankly, not realistic.

All other traumas for me have dimmed to this simmering bubble called PTSD, picture it in the stress cup. It's really only a problem when I'm faced with certain triggers, and I've developed some good skills for reminding myself of the closure I feel about those traumas. Closure is a beautiful thing. Now, to figure out how to get closure on this whole idea of reconciliation.

Closure is a beautiful thing. I need to find this for myself as well. I'm not saying either that I have been successful with any of this forgiveness stuff. I've had great trouble even contemplating it. It's more just something I hold in mind, as I know before I went through all the major traumas, that I had come some ways in my healing from the invalidation and emotional abuse I'd grown up with, and KNOW for a fact, that I did experience amazing peace and new life, from being able to rise above blame, and release the painful stuff inside me...as an act of self-compassion, for me...not them.

That was before all the really hard stuff happened though, and I have not had the same success getting back to that place as before. It's been much much harder this time round. So I do realize it can seem like a very unhelpful thing to say to someone suffering.

I must respect my own perspective. I must respect my own decision. I have made this decision repeatedly. I must avoid them. They are toxic. Will they abuse? I don't think so. I think they are just toxic and it will make me sick. But, I am my children's mother, and I must protect myself so I can be happy and available to my kids. If I am sick, and they have a doting grandpa who will tell them stories from his warped perspective of my childhood, then they will be a part of that toxicity that will make me sick. That's my reasoning anyway. I cannot risk dad turning my kids against me, as he turned everyone else against me in childhood.

And I support you every step of the way to do what you need to stay healthy and safe. I support anyone in the same position to do the same. I am supported to do the same thing for myself by the people on this forum, so I understand fully what it takes to push a person to the point where they feel they need to take drastic measures, and I understand it is a very hard thing to do as well.

My grandparents will die soon. They are getting quite old. They have had some recent health scares. When they die, I will find out in some random, inadvertent way. Like, one of the people who are a part of my husband's family will offer me condolences. OR, I may find out from my brother who may or may not be understanding of my position... but, will certainly express his sadness that we never reconciled. My father will die some day, and I fear I will feel desperation that I never went to him and calmly, rationally explained what I remember about the events of my childhood. So, again... uneasiness. If I have conviction about my position, then I will find closure. But, it's difficult for me to maintain my resolve without the anger I feel from the neglect and invalidation I received as a child.

I so understand this anger at being neglected and invalidated. I'm still having my reality negated by the people who are supposed to be the people I can trust more than anyone in the world, and are actually the people I trust the least.

I spend so much time trying to put back together all the things they tear apart in me, and to constantly have to tell myself that it's them, not me, when they project their crap onto me, without a care in the world, or even getting how much it can f*ck with my head...if I let it.

Forgiveness is good and feels good, but I cannot let go of the protective layer of anger until I've committed myself to my own perspective, with regard to their opposing viewpoints, and with compassion and understanding for how they feel about my perspective. Otherwise, every time I am confronted with how bad they feel about me not reconciling, I will have to go over the decision again... and my protective anger will be invoked.

I think I am coming to this realisation too, that I need to understand and see their viewpoints with compassion for how they feel about my perspective. It's very hard to maintain a focussed perspective, when all my emotions get triggered, and old conditioning telling me I have to keep mum and dad happy and put their feelings first above my own.

it's a real battle inside of ourselves. And the rest of the world is completely oblivious to it. They all have their own battles to fight.

I have thought about sending my dad a card which tells him that I forgive him, that I love him, and that I hope he has a happy life. But, I don't know how to write such a card so that he can hear the goodbye in it, and won't contact me begging for another chance. It would only be to assuage my own feelings of sadness that he believes I am punishing him with my absence. And, it would likely result in him sending waves of guilt trips back to me. He would see it as a step toward reconciliation, when it is not. It is only a step toward open forgiveness, and love. Do you see how confusing it would be for him to receive that and still not get reconciliation from me?

Yes, I think I do understand what you are saying. I'v ehad the same thoughts with regard to my own father, and I don't want to send him mixed messages at all, which is why I have not taken his calls or emails, and not gone back on the boundary I set for myself.

My parents would perceive it the very same way.

My idea of forgiveness would not include even involving them in the process. There is no need to say it to them, but for the process to happen inside of me. I'M the only one who needs to know about it.

The word forgiveness should never have been changed to mean letting go. IMHO, it causes too much anguish and confusion to use it in the "enlightened" context.

I am finding it confusing at this point to know what the rest of the world means by letting go, and forgiveness. The debate has gone around in circles so many times in this thread about it. I feel weary to explain it one more time.

To me, "letting go" does not mean forgetting all the crappy things they said and did, and forgiving them does not mean letting them off the hook. To me, it means letting go of the crappy feelings that are only contributing to making me feel constantly bad every day.