Attachment Issues

[Abstract]

Or doesn't it look like it?

Hi Pencil, :) I was certainly not saying you were not forward thinking! I very much think you are doing the work on trying to make things better for yourself. I promise you that I am not one to make little surreptitious, indirect digs. ;)

I tend to think in terms of the big picture always when discussing this type of stuff. So I will say something and then my mind goes off in tangents and possibilities (my mind goes in different directions al the time). So for example I started writing that and then half way through thought something like this, "sometimes I do this well too - when I am not unconsciously living in deluded land - but I also then sometimes use it as a means to demean and bully myself and that keeps me stuck". I am always like this. Thinking of possible other interpretations that others may have or that apply to me. I hope that makes some sense. Hope that answers it for you.

Reading some posts on the forum, I sometimes think it can be.

Investigating, crime, forensics... There is a theme here!!! And I wish I could share why it is ironic but I can't. :rolleyes:

yours are forensic.

No it is fine to say.

Hashi, for me personally therapy is a crime scene! Call in the FBI and MI5! :rolleyes:

Yes, Pencil I am afraid my brain works like that a bit. That is how I deal with myself. It has been helpful in many respects and has been very useful in recovery in various ways.

On its own it is a problem and I can drive myself nuts and for many years I neglected the emotional aspect of things in therapy and neglected awareness and acceptance. But now I am much more balanced in how I approach myself. And I have processed a lot of feelings in the last two years - they have been a turning point for me. The DBT concept of wise mind comes to mind.

You din't need to "answer" what I said! I just put it out there as one concept for you to consider. I think it was just niggling me all along that there seemed to be something big for you connected to boundaries that I could not put my finger on. And I still had an open mind to whether just not having any was the solution to that something big.

And when you described what they represented to you I just had this great sense of sadness and fear and maybe even need. Maybe a need to make some sense of the world in some way. For someone to give you something that you need and yet not being able to know quite what that is.

And maybe for us all that need is to feel safe and to feel heard. And yet when boundaries have such an incongruent mix of emotional responses then it is pretty difficult to feel safe.

We all need limits to feel safe. It is how human beings function. We need to know where we end and someone else begins. And yet when any of those limits is imbued with past unrelated experiences then it is pretty difficult to experience their safety. Just a thought.

I can actually thank you too as there is something in this that is relevant to me that I was not fully aware of and am still trying to clarify in my mind (other than the obvious reactions to strong boundary settings by others).

I have known for a while that setting myself tasks can have me spiral down into a mental freeze state faster than I could spell it. Then after that it takes me ages to start moving forward in any direction again. The only way I get around it is speaking to myself - out loud - like a small scared child with lots of reassurance. Mentally and physically that is the age and state I feel. Not terribly helpful when attempting to organise a business. :meh:

Somehow I need to desensitize my reaction to this but I am not quite sure how. I think it would have to be with a T as I end up in a spiral on my own. And then we get back to therapy again!

 

[Pencil]

The reality is of course also that I will need therapy to sort out disorganised attachment, which means there is probably not much more I can say about it. Without the long slog that everyone assures me therapy will be, I'll stay stuck in this zig-zag rut ... sigh.

Abstract, our posts crossed - and so the above is NOT a reply to yours. I'm now going to read your post, and will respond properly to that. Thanking you in advance for responding.

And then we get back to therapy again!

This is funny! We both avoid it like the plague.

 

[Abstract]

A good therapist manages them almost seamlessly, as does a self aware, well-behaved, well-socialised client...

never managed to internalise the fact that I have or deserve personal boundaries

The rules changed every moment,

I hate it when others violate mine,

And this is the crux if it isn't it? The paradoxical confusion of trying to define what is healthy.

When I read up on boundaries they talk about people with healthy boundaries having flexible ones. Rigid boundaries, lack of boundaries, or inappropriate lack of boundaries and or rigid boundaries are what causes havoc.

So someone who is using them well will have flexible ones when appropriate and rigid ones when appropriate. And they will instinctively be able to correctly judge which is appropriate in each context. Lucky them!!!:p And I guess this goes for a good therapist too.

I have gone from none, to none and rigid inappropriately, to rigid inappropriately, and to rigid appropriately and inappropriately none. :bag::oops::rolleyes: What I had of my instincts took me in the wrong direction almost every time! Getting anything right requires enormous amounts of work and me trying to stay aware and do what I should rather than what feels natural.

So I guess when it comes to therapy there will be some rigid boundaries that remain and should always. Such as not speaking about us to others; not touching inappropriately or if we are not comfortable; being able to rely on times and someone being there; on them keeping their own stuff out of therapy unless relevant to us; being able to trust not being abused in any sense and many more more subtle ones. The things we should take for granted if the therapist is good I guess.

And if we feel safe in these then maybe it is easier to accept flexibility outside these. Maybe that's when the flexibility comes in.

But therapist with good boundaries are the safe ones in my mind. Having therapy in my therapist house amongst all her family pictures, her dog and ending up meeting her children might be seen as a problem to some but she was really respectful of my space. For example once I wrote out something to try to get myself to speak about it - couldn't - left the paper on my chair after the session. She was sure to tell me that she had not read it and I believed her. If she had it would have affected me badly as I would have felt violated.

MD, I understand what you say about a term being over used and almost loosing it's meaning in a way. Or with ending up associating it with a particular set of circumstances when in fact there is much more to it than that. Maybe the word becomes tainted with whatever it is that is not helpful for us.

 

[Pencil]

And maybe for us all that need is to feel safe and to feel heard. And yet when boundaries have such an incongruent mix of emotional responses then it is pretty difficult to feel safe.

We all need limits to feel safe.

The majority of people on this forum, it seems to me, are in therapy and use this forum as an adjunct. Since I can't be in therapy, I use this forum as therapy :rolleyes:

Boundaries have been a massive part of the dysfunction in my family. My parents did not allow boundaries. The older siblings, especially the two who have been the bane of my life, internalised that and repeated that with my and my sister. This included silly things, such as the not having the right to say no to an instruction, such as 'wash my car'. They made rules, and the breaking of their insane, arbitrary, ever-changing rules were punishable by a beating, or whatever punishment they felt like doling out on any particular day.

Brother and sister still have an unbreakable alliance: My sister makes the rules, sets up the game, decides on punishment, and my brother is her henchman, the 'executioner'.

The current battle, as you know, revolves around my daughter. The underlying motive is incredibly simple: They insist on my daughter being and addition to the original family, and therefore under their 'jurisdiction' on the same level as me. I say NO, my daughter and I are a separate family, with a very clear and strong boundary around us. I don't want my daughter exposed to their insanity. Hence the unrelenting attacks on that boundary. And my sister will stop at NOTHING.

But this dynamic is, although crystal clear to me, frustratingly difficult to explain to others, although some of the people who have been involved, such as the police, social services, and school counselor, are beginning to see, and to articulate it, although it may be as 'Your sister is jealous of you because you have a child and she doesn't'. Mmm, not quite that simple, but thank you for beginning to see the insane stupidity behind her behaviour.'

She is, thank GOD! slowly running out of potential allies, and every person she has tried to turn into a potential ally, has, after some official investigation, turned into another reference who is willing to testify that an investigation showed nothing unholy going on, and that my daughter is a happy, well looked after and well adjusted 7 year old who does well at school. And all of this is not only what I hope for, I ask them for confirmation in writing, as well as for confirmation that they will testify in the event of an attack from another angle. And all of them come to the conclusion that she has issues. THIS insanity is taxing!

Sorry, I went off on another tangent.

 

[Abstract]

Yes we do Pencil!! At least you are talking about it!

Honestly if I was in that dynamic and with my daughter involved I truly would go crazy. I can only stay afloat with small very limited interactions with family and have to feel out of their control.

Your sister does sound like she has enormous issues! And normally people behaving like this think they don't and blame all around them.

Your daughter is your daughter and does not fall under the control of your siblings and mother.

 

[Pencil]

So I guess when it comes to therapy there will be some rigid boundaries that remain and should always. Such as not speaking about us to others; not touching inappropriately or if we are not comfortable; being able to rely on times and someone being there; on them keeping their own stuff out of therapy unless relevant to us; being able to trust not being abused in any sense and many more more subtle ones. The things we should take for granted if the therapist is good I guess.

At some stage I will take time to formulate exactly what I mean about the boundary issue in therapy. But for now, let me just say that I expect these things from everyone I let into my life. These rules are cardinal, and people - lovers, friends, therapists, who overstep these are thrown out.

In reaction to my family I have a huge space around me, and massive walls. My problem is that I react with fear to a boundary violation, as I'm still programmed - in every cell in my body - to experience my need and right to assert my boundaries as a suicidal gesture. I have countless stories of how a simple 'no' led to extreme violence.

My problem in therapy is never violating a boundary, it is with being so locked in myself that I can't make proper use of therapy.

This is depressing, as therapy usually is :D

Your daughter is your daughter and does not fall under the control of your siblings

Can I send you her e-mail address so you can TELL her?! :D

Virtually ALL the violence in my family had one single underlying message: 'You do NOT have the right to boundaries, for you do NOT have RIGHTS!

Guess what is the biggest problem discussed with the school counselor? Me being 'too democratic' with my daughter and NOT being authoritative enough.

Oy. I've gone the other direction.

 

[Pencil]

And normally people behaving like this think they don't and blame all around them.

Yes! Yes! Yes! It makes me dizzy!! She is an innocent victim!! She is MY victim! Somehow she can't SEE the simple fact that I will allow no contact, that I do not contact her in any way, do not respond to her, not EVEN to her attacks, taunts, provocations, and YET she tells the world that I am a threat to her!! WTF??? But now of course the fact that I WON'T allow any contact is reason for her to feel victimized. She, like my mother, is the Grand Master of the double bind.

If that person is my T, is that attachment? In my mind it is just an appropriate place to garner advice that I value and trust.

I think it is a measure of attachment.

And I wish I could share why it is ironic but I can't.

Why can't you?

and maybe even need. Maybe a need to make some sense of the world in some way. For someone to give you something that you need and yet not being able to know quite what that is.

Perhaps now you will understand why I felt so defeated when the therapist made the comment about having to be kind to myself and to befriend the need or the pain. I immediately felt locked inside myself again, and thought that I had been kind to myself all my life, I have had only me all my life, I do that without therapy.

She did apologise afterwards, saying she expressed herself incorrectly, and that unmet needs were what that drove people to therapy, and that she didn't mean I had to deal with it by myself, that she didn't simply send me back to myself. But during that month before we resolved that, I felt so deeply shut inside myself that I was close to despair.

 

[Hashi]

Pencil,

I hope this question comes out the right way. I think I have a very different way of feeling and seeing things from you, and am trying to understand.

If you could invent the perfect therapist/therapy situation for you, what would that look like? What would they be and say and do that would give you what you need?

 

[Pencil]

Hashi, it is a very reasonable question.

I thought the last therapist was IT, but not quite :unsure:

We had misunderstandings and issues, which she resolved with me. I became very attached to her, and felt okay with that attachment. When we had misunderstandings, she was attentive and put time and effort into sorting it out.

She does not understand my paranoia around physical contact, and was not in any way inclined to address it, but was willing to try and help me find someone that would help me in that area. I appreciated the fact that she acknowledges the extent to which she doesn't understand it, while at the same time, I thought, tried to, and really respected my boundaries in terms of not pushing the issue. I also appreciated her acknowledgement about not fully understanding it, while saying she got how 'bad' it was for me. This was a welcome relief, as most people don't have clue, but will insist on giving 'advice' such as 'why don't you hug your friends?' :banghead:

She is very gentle, which is what I need.

The only criticism I have is that I usually had to start waving my arms a lot for her to pick up there was something wrong. I really sometimes got the impression that she was a little distracted. Another example is that she would at the end of a session say: 'This abc issue is really important and I want us to talk about it in the next session', which made me feel somehow connected to her, only to find at the next session that she couldn't remember - not only that she wanted me to talk about it, but also the issue in itself, as well as the significance. I did always know why she thought something was important, and why she wanted to talk about it, so it was difficult to revive it on my own.

And this also brings me to another issue - her words and actions did not always match. There were times when she said things that meant a lot to me, but her subsequent actions negated her words.

All of this led me to experience her as teflon coated. I can't quite explain it.

And so, Hashi, I don't really know. I liked her and trusted her insight. I felt attached to her, and I think I needed what MD described - how she felt her T approached her cautiously, and spent time just letting her feel safe. I think too many things went wrong too soon in the relationship with mine, and I think it took too long to resolve each issue. We only had 8 sessions, with two breaks.

But if I could afford therapy, I would definitely have gone back to her, but due to everything that happened, and the fact that I've been forced to detach to a large extent (although I'm keeping some sort of attachment intact) I have been forced to close the window, and I'm not sure I will ever go for therapy again.

My post is a mixture of past and present tense, which clearly indicates how unresolved I am about this.

I really think I'm not making any sense. I know what I want, I've heard it described by others, but I can't quite verbalize it.

But thanks for asking :)

 

[Pencil]

Just to add

I spent many years of my life trying to understand my family dynamics, and comparing what happened there with a kind of 'universal rule' I had to construct to help me measure, sort and understand. I don't feel the need for someone to help me process intellectually in order to understand.

What I do need is a therapist who will stay through the emotional upheavals - and through all the snot and tears I have NEVER gone through, and which for some reason feels unbelievably, incredibly, terrifying.

Does this make more sense?

 

[Rumors]

And I think I unconsciously choose people who are not really available, or not really interested in long term relationships anyway.

Looking back at my life, I realize that even though I didn't particularly appreciate being left, there is not a single person I was ever in a relationship with that I would still want to be with today. It is also a fact that I enjoy being on my own, so I am not in a state about being single.

So, do you subconsciencously choose people that are emotionally unavailable bc in the end you know down deep you want/need/choose/deserve to be alone? I only stick all of those in there for you to insert your feeling bc it could be any one, all, or none.

I hope you are able to resolve some of this here. I know I read and garner thoughts and ideas here that I try to take to heart and put to work. However, I do see a T that helps me further.

Sending good vibes your way! Hoping you are finding some peace.

What I do need is a therapist who will stay through the emotional upheavals - and through all the snot and tears I have NEVER gone through, and which for some reason feels unbelievably, incredibly, terrifying.

Does this make more sense?

OH THIS MAKES SENSE!

 

[Pencil]

Hi Rumors, I'm not in therapy simply because I can't afford it.

In my search for a therapist, I saw 4. The second one said she wouldn't work with me as therapy would become too destabilizing, especially as I have no support system. When I started seeing the last therapist I explained to her that it was important for me to remain functional as I am breadwinner, mother, housekeeper. Unfortunately, it did become too destabilizing and I lost clients, work, money.

I think it is a little more complex than choosing people who are emotionally unavailable. Some of them had hectic issues of their own. After my last relationship I realised that my issues made relationships almost impossible and made a conscious decision never to go into a relationship. My ex, however, has gone through about 8 relationships. Go figure. But if I have to choose one of the options, I'd say I NEED to be alone - to heal first.

Thanks for the vibes Rumors, I appreciate it. And the peace, I need it :). But don't make it sound like 'farewell' :D