Redefining Mentally Ill

[Pencil]

The struggle to prove to others that we are not bad or wrong etc. is a really misdirected thing.

Thank you for your post. ALL of it is something I still struggle with. You really hit the nail on the head for me. I'm only now getting out of trying to prove that I'm really not mad, really not a bad person, really a good 'kid'. I grew up with older siblings who ritually abused me and my sister. The game was to see us 'break'. My sister went limp. I fought. And when I did, the message was: 'See, you're violent and insane.'

The insane part is that I'm still trying to 'prove' that I'm neither, even though I haven't had direct contact with the f*ckwits in two years. I'll feel liberated when I can be in a foul mood, let rip, and not feel crap.

 

[Pencil]

“It's hard to fight an enemy who has outposts in your head.”

Sally Kempton

 

[Eleanor]

I teach my daughter to 'do the right thing' under all circumstances.

Me too. And while the "wrong thing" is generally easy to identify (and often tempting to boot) "the right thing" is a tougher nut to crack. And it is tough (quite apart from any additional problems stemming from abuse) for two reasons: First because we have to KNOW SOMETHING to figure out what the right thing is - specifically, it helps to know what we actually want the outcome to be, and if what we want is a realistic outcome. And kids can't generally know what this is on their own. It requires a fair amount of sophistication about other people and their motives and limitations and social dynamics.... And people usually just need time to develop that. Second, because often the "best" thing (there may be several "right things" that could be done) is risky and/or difficult for us to do. This is why all major moral traditions include a virtue theory. "Virtue" being, in essence, "virtuosity." Not just walking away. Not just staying. Not just hitting the other guy. Not just letting yourself get hit. The idea is to have the capacity to do any of those things (and many many more in different ways) when it is the best thing to do in the situation. "Doing the right thing" is about perception, judgment and virtuosity in execution.

Put another way, having a good compass is a really really helpful thing. And it is amazingly more helpful when you have a map. And even more helpful when you have good boots and a full camping kit. And occasionally a gun comes in really helpful, even if you are clever enough not to have to shoot anyone.

The struggle to prove to others that we are not bad or wrong etc. is a really misdirected thing. Going back to the basic - you can't change others' thoughts or behavior, you can only change your own - struggling to prove ones' own rightness can be coming from insecurity and self-hate. Accepting that others may think what they will, but not allowing it to affect your own emotional or mental health - that might be the harder path but it's the only one we can succeed in.

Too bad this is too big to tattoo on yourself.

I struggle with this too. ("I'm good! I'm competent! REALLY REALLY I AM!!!") Particularly when unjustly criticized. I have every reason to believe that I am the most receptive person (almost ever) to genuine and substantive criticism and correction. But unthinking or unjust criticism .... tips me straight into neurotic behavior and thinking. Right smack into crazy. :eek::banghead::bag::bawling::bored::wacky::nailbiting::shifty::sorry::sour:

And why oh why can't I just... Cooly Walk Away? I am getting (with a lot of support and encouragement) better at this. I don't get sucked in as much as I used to. But.... I begin to see my limitations.

I grew up in a place and time where "good girls" didn't stand up for themselves. Oh how I love Scout in To Kill A Mockingbird when she hits that boy. And discovering that her father (Atticus Finch, my hero) had instructed her never ever to hit anyone... unless she was "sooore provoked." Which, in this case she was. So I try to give my daughter the limits of strategies. I think being able to hit someone or something hard enough to stop an attack in an important life skill. As is being able to chew someone's ass. Or be impossibly gentle. Or diffuse a tense situation with humor.

I'm off on a tangent I think - but someone will get us back on track....

 

[shimmerz]

What they can do is remove themselves entirely from the situation.

Unless of course they are stalking crazed motherf......s that will not rest until they completely break you. And, of course if society as a whole buries their head in the sand as to the danger in this. How many people are systematically killed in this society because someone has targeted them? Take a look at this link and tell me that we shouldn't do something about this before people are killed. And these stats are for murder only. I haven't been murdered - yet.

and that was (unfortunately) not going to happen.

It isn't going to happen but that doesn't mean that it couldn't or shouldn't happen.

I teach my daughter to 'do the right thing' under all circumstances.

I have to say, when I realized the type of people in this world and how ill equipped I was to handle them due to my upbringing, I was NOT happy with my parents. On the upside, I have survived and it has been because of my upbringing that I have been able to get myself back on track again.

I grew up in a place and time where "good girls" didn't stand up for themselves.

I am still having one hell of a time breaking this faulty belief system. I am okay this way at work, but in my private life, it has taken me 7 years of therapy to be able to say 'boo' back to people without feeling like if I stand up for myself a terror a million fold more than the situation I am dealing with is not going to unfold and it will be all my fault because I dared to say anything.

 

[scout86]

I'm off on a tangent I think

Oh, but it's a WONDERFUL tangent!!!! :)

Unless of course they are stalking crazed motherf......s

@shimmerz you are in a really tough spot. I've never been in one that tough. When I've had to deal with people approaching that level of dangerousness, my best strategy has been to convince them that I'm a good bit crazier than they are and leave them thinking that messing with me will be more trouble than it's worth. But, you really can't bluff. You kind of have to be prepared, or at least of the mindset, to kill them if you have to. You strike me, from here anyway, as a much more civilized person than I am, and that way of looking at things probably goes against your grain. Which makes you a superior human being, IMO. But......... well, there's really only one way to deal with a rabid skunk, you know? And, if it's NOT rabid, it might get the point and go away.

I think there will always be a certain number of "evil" people who fall through the cracks. To deal with them, you need, a strategy. What are they after? What's in it for them? You have to remember that their motivations are NOT going to make sense to you. (If they do, it's a bad sign!) Then figure out what it takes to "not reward them". A step farther, what do they think they have to "lose". (Again, this will probably not be something that strikes YOU as "losing".) Set it up so that's at risk. Best of all possible worlds, we just don't "play" with these people because they refuse to play nice. If you have to deal with them, you might have to accept that, when you're "sooore provoked" you get to bend the rules to fit the situation.

 

[joeylittle]

When I've had to deal with people approaching that level of dangerousness, my best strategy has been to convince them that I'm a good bit crazier than they are and leave them thinking that messing with me will be more trouble than it's worth. But, you really can't bluff. You kind of have to be prepared, or at least of the mindset, to kill them if you have to.
.

This reminds me of how to deal with an aggressive predatory animal. Get bigger and louder and hope it realizes you might not be an easy snack.

But I do believe we always have a choice. @shimmerz , you are dealing with some evil people, to be sure; slight tangent, but if, as you say, they are un changeable and will stop at nothing - it just reinforces my point that you cannot control them, but you can control you. Radical re-location comes to mind.

Please, know that I'm not initiating an attack on you or your choices. I'm just saying that even though it might seem morally wrong, unfair, like it shouldn't have to be - sometimes the only choice that will bring safety in the face of danger is to leave it entirely behind.

I struggle with the choice thing, which is probably why I'm writing this. Every time I think I'm well and truly stuck (which us often) I realize that if I step back far enough there is generally one actual way to get unstuck. It is always way outside of my comfort zone, or something I'd normally automatically dismiss. But it's there.

I wish every dangerous member of society could be magically identified before they become dangerous, or even years after. I wish they could all be tossed in a pit. My heart absolutely breaks for people who are living in continuous exposure to their worst enemies. But the enemy remains. I think the midst realistic solution to that horrible problem is to retreat, no matter the cost.

The dangerous people will never change because they don't know they have a problem. But we know what our problems are. And we can change.

 

[Eleanor]

Unless of course they are stalking crazed motherf......s that will not rest until they completely break you. And, of course if society as a whole buries their head in the sand as to the danger in this. How many people are systematically killed in this society because someone has targeted them?

I wonder... what if we made it easier for people to get protective orders. Sane rational people should be able to respect a demand to keep away from another human being. And sane rational people should be allowed to demand to be left alone by someone. I don't know tho how to do this in a world where not-so-sane people ask for (and invite the other to then violate) such orders. Surely there is a right to be left in peace that could be enforced somehow... If only a society cared to recognize it...

I gather you are/have fled. Would changing your name help?

It is such a horrible horrible problem. Is there any way to "set up" your stalker? So that it is clear that he is a nut job and a criminal? Without you getting injured I mean.

 

[Pencil]

And while the "wrong thing" is generally easy to identify (and often tempting to boot) "the right thing" is a tougher nut to crack. .... "Doing the right thing" is about perception, judgment and virtuosity in execution.
Put another way, having a good compass is a really really helpful thing. And it is amazingly more helpful when you have a map. And even more helpful when you have good boots and a full camping kit. And occasionally a gun comes in really helpful, even if you are clever enough not to have to shoot anyone.

I must quote the whole paragraph: each word in it is totally eye-opening - I'm in the process of discovering a major blind spot in myself!! The 'right thing' (and I could be wrong) seems to be to me absence of anything that is 'wrong' - e.g. 'we don't hit back', 'if they something ugly, you don't have to respond with something ugly', 'just walk away'. I'm turning my daughter into another victim. The 'right' thing morally is often not the best thing socially.

I'll need guidance on this one, @Eleanor and others.

 

[Pencil]

Take a look at this link and tell me that we shouldn't do something about this before people are killed. And these stats are for murder only. I haven't been murdered - yet.

@shimmerz - could you post the link?

 

[Pencil]

It is such a horrible horrible problem. Is there any way to "set up" your stalker? So that it is clear that he is a nut job and a criminal? Without you getting injured I mean.

I'd love to see a good strategy. On the other thread, 'Still Running' I recommended books that deal with strategies in war. I've been looking at them again. It's fascinating material, and it makes me realize what a total idiot I am when it comes to reading a situation and responding with 'virtuosity'. :bag:

 

[shimmerz]

Radical re-location comes to mind.
Please, know that I'm not initiating an attack on you or your choices.

Oh, I absolutely know that @joeylittle. Thank you. I have fought so long for my right to stay where my children and grandchildren are - and regardless of how unfair this seems, I am coming to just this conclusion. I know life isn't fair but at the same time I have to agree with @Eleanor , that getting protective orders and enforcing such should be much, much easier.

The dangerous people will never change because they don't know they have a problem.

I get this but I have to say, having been to the hospital in urgent care because I was freaked out over what was happening, the doctors understanding that paranoia was not the problem - knowing that spouses and intimate partners are killed or maimed too often, well.....if it is a teacher's duty to report child abuse to authorities, why couldn't it be a doctor's duty to report such as well? Haven't thought that all the way through - but really - would it be that difficult or that crazy an idea?

I gather you are/have fled. Would changing your name help?

No, I have 'disappeared' on paper. Unfortunately on Friday I was forced to 'reappear' on paper as I was flushed out again and government needs an address or no health care or drivers license or essential services. One of my 'stalkers' would easily (given his job) be able to track a name change. Arrrrrggggghhhhh!

as a much more civilized person than I am, and that way of looking at things probably goes against your grain. Which makes you a superior human being, IMO. But......... well, there's really only one way to deal with a rabid skunk, you know? And, if it's NOT rabid, it might get the point and go away.

My T doc is actually helping me to design a plan with my SO - speak to both of us - as my SO, imho, is a superior human being because he has actually learned how to protect himself and others and I have no clue. I think the idea is that T-doc and he will actually try to unlearn my learned patterns of defensive thought and behaviour. @Pencil pointed this out during one of her posts in this thread - about her father and chess and since that golden nugget I am seeing more and more that I do and have lived from a defensive position all of my life. This comes honestly to me given my infant/toddler life traumas. It is a hard nut to crack but I am seeing it and I have T-doc and SO really wanting to help change the cognition here for me. I am extremely grateful. To them, to you all for helping throw things out there for me to mull over.

each word in it is totally eye-opening - I'm in the process of discovering a major blind spot in myself!! The 'right thing' (and I could be wrong) seems to be to me absence of anything that is 'wrong' - e.g. 'we don't hit back',

And this is, @Pencil - exactly what you said in the posting about chess. This is what my T and SO are going to try to help me with. I truthfully am completely blinded to any other way. Even seeing the word 'gun' in that paragraph made me shudder. I have to say, my lawyer said to me on the final day of my disaster divorce, that I would have been much better off killing him. I would have gotten away with it based on what had and was continuing to happen. I couldn't even process that. Now I wish that @Eleanor had been available with that gun and encouraged me to pull the trigger.

But then here is the thing that completely messes with my head. If I had done so (been able to get my head around it because of the severity of the situation) - who would be the 'evil' one then? Am I so frightened of being as evil as them that I would die for it? Apparently so. Is it true that evil is as evil does? Stymied.

 

[shimmerz]

@shimmerz - could you post the link?

I did I was sure - may it had been removed? I am posting again and if it disappears then mods have taken out I think.
This isn't the same one and I haven't read it all (it is late here) but this looks to be a relevant to this topic. NIJ is the research, development and evaluation agency for the DOJ (Department of Justice USA).

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/jr000250.pdf