What Happens In A Church... Can't Be Talked About With My Therapist?! What?!

[joeylittle]

I told him I'm not arranging that, and I YELLED no more texts, no more emails, no, do not do that. You can call me but no texts, no emails.
He kept saying he would email me and I became hysterical. I started swearing, screaming, NO do not email or text me this is f*cking ridiculous...

The whole situation is really loaded, and complicated. I'm going to pick up on one small piece of it.

Something you can do to help yourself, @Justmehere, (I think) is learn how to stop, take a deep breath, and walk away. If I'm remembering right, you ended up in the same kind of explosion with your therapist and with your friend in the parking lot situation.

By same, I mean you can escalate quickly (going from told him to yelled), and somehow you believe that you need to get proof back from the listener that you have topped/won the conversation. It seems to actually shift from what you are talking about to needing to be validated in some way, maybe by them telling you you are right, or that they get it, I'm not sure.

Your mom called, you said you had to go. He said he would text or email to talk further. You said no, and then you said NO!

In hindsight, what do you think it would have been like for you to leave immediately after your mom called, and not responded?

I personally have a hard time not re-engaging when I believe someone is completely mis-understanding me, or is just plain wrong, or is talking about doing something I don't want. Something kicks in inside me that isn't totally about what is being discussed - it's a panicky feeling about (oddly) believing I'm screwing something up (not them). It's really weird and I still don't understand it. What I do know, for myself, is that when I feel that panic rising, I need to fix my breathing and let the conversation end, come back to it later.

Just an observation and suggestion.

 

[Changing4Best]

The building I live in has video cams running 24/7 that record who goes in the parking lots, who enters the building and who goes into which door in each of the hallways. This prevents excessive traffic, also making it impossible for any of the tenants to be carrying on any kind of business, illegal or otherwise. Our leases specifically state that we are not to carry on any kind of business here in the place where we live. This rule is enforced. It prevents folks from having relatives live in their apartments too, since the landlord pays the water bill. Too many showers from one apartment could run the bill up excessively high and cost the landlord too much money.

This is a building that has rent subsidies from our government under the Section 8 housing codes. The landlord is required to meet certain standards of housing set by the government. I am guessing that the video cams are allowed, or they would not be so obvious. However, to my knowledge, there has been no court case challenging that. If I am wrong, I eat my hat! Certainly I have no argument with their being there. In fact once someone I thought was a friend came into my apartment with the key I had given them to watch my dog with and stolen my medicines! The video cams were used to verify this and then I had the locks changed, so she could not steal anything else from me. I don't have the dog anymore, so that problem is solve, none the less, I keep all my meds in a locked closet now, just in case. No one but me has the key to that closet, not even the landlord! I do have one copy of it hidden somewhere, in case I should lose my keys. That is the only copy.

 

[John7377]

I am posting a lot lately, I know. Thanks for being patient with me right now. It is a hard season of...

As a Fellow PTSD person, i'd say that you shouldn't be embarrased. You put your trust in a few people that didn't act like adults.


One, I'd consider finding another church and start over. Christ is everywhere and it should not be too hard unless you live in a very small town.

Two, don't discuss your PTSD with anyone except your therapist. Only one person in my church, an ordained deacon and fellow veteran who suffers from combat PTSD, knows anything about my problems. I talked to him only one time about my problems because I needed some guidance on how to deal with the veterans administration. Before our conversation, he basically took a vow of silence on the matter. We see each other maybe once a month at church and he never brings it up, nor do I. There is no reason to.

Three, continue your therapy and be open with your therapist. I see my therapist once a month and I can talk to him about literally anything. My memories of my trauma will never go away, but talking to someone once a month about my issues seems to help. My wife is very understanding most of the time, she understands that sometimes I have a bad day. Allow yourself to have a bad day every once in a while. Even people without PTSD have one.

Good luck and God bless,
John

 

[Kintsugi]

@joeylittle kicks ass at critical thinking and situation analysis. I too thought that this situation harkened to the last confrontation gone sour.

 

[Ronin]

I am beginning to smile through all the tears tonight. It is actually kind of funny that after they kick me out for screaming at them to stop sending me texts and emails, they text me to tell me they emailed me.

Smiling is good and tears are alright too, take it slow and as it comes, JMH.

Of course they do would do that. 'Baad apple JMH, do you even realize how bad you are and we so kind and giving you second chaances, look at that!'... bullshit. Typical & unoriginal in both idea & the making of it. Don't give into the intimidation, they'll live and find someone else to terrorize over bullshit. You don't need people like that in your life.

 

[Justmehere]

@joeylittle - you have hit the nail on the head. Thank you so much for brining this up and helping me further cut through my own blind spots and denial about that.

That very pattern that you noticed is what scares me and hurts more than anything else but I'm so scared to face it.

I have now three times sought validation And being heard on a boundary of no, to the point of escalating to screaming.

All three times happened after I started dealing with the childhood neglect, which my therpist says was profound.

I'm even doing it now. I have to say my therpist says the neglect was bad so it must be bad, see?

It shows up in subtle ways. I could just say hey, the neglect was bad, and not instantly prove that it is with saying my therapist says it is.

I have been actually working on even that in therapy - just saying stuff and not automatically defending it or brining someone else into the statement. Just saying it and letting it be.

I've also been working on saying no and leaving and not freaking out and yelling.

I used to be know for being shy and quiet and now....

It's like I get so scared when I can't say no, that I flip.

It is the same pattern (although it wa a much shorter) with my therapist and that friend (who was the friend who gossiped 3 months ago.) te bible study leader who pushed the boundary did it three days after I freaked with my therapist.

This pattern of escalating to screaming is new and very deeply damaging. It's destroying my life.

But the more subtle pattern of over explaining and defending and seeking excessive validation is life long.

My new therapist and I have been working on role playing saying no and walking away every single session.

She makes me say no with no explaination or defense. Just no. So that I can get out of the habit of even needing to prove my no and get validation for it.

This time, I did get up and walk out and the pastor followed, blocking my path. I actually got up to leave before this whole mess started with the recording because I was feeling already pushed. Doing like I had practiced in therapy.

In therpay, I always leave my bag and my service dog behind because I'm always planning on coming back in therapy. This time, I left them behind thinking I would step out, calm down, and be able to go back in.

The pastor followed, an I kept saying I can't talk I can't doing this right now. I kept asking for him to give me 5 minutes to be left alone. He wouldn't. So I went back in to get the dog and he followed me the whole way as we argued about the texting....

I got the leaving part halfway down.

When I get that scared, I need to just leave until I can also stay calm.

I have already told my therapist that I failed and screamed at someone no again. She emailed me today to remind me the day this all happened was the anniversary of a violent event in a church.

She tried to encourage me to not feel so hopeless this morning, as I did leave, but we have to now get me conditioned to do it with the dog and my bag so it's automatic.

And of course so that I am calm too. We are always working on that one. I feel most hopeless about that. I am becoming convinced I will never get past it and shouldn't have any close relationships. Right now, I probably shouldn't. I can't handle an authority figure pushing me and not accepting no. It does become like a mission for me to get them to respect it, validate it, or otherwise solve it, because really I'm trying to solve old trauma by people in positions of authority and frsut who didn't listen to no and did a lot worse than just kick me out.

I don't know what to do anymore about that part of it.

The first that I yelled no at is the same friend who gossiped to this bible study leader that I had been in treatment. The pastor that I yelled at us the one who told me o please tell two friends and told me these two friends were safe and would keep it confidential. The week I yelled at my therapist was the same week I had this bible study leader push the boundary of no too. I yelled at my therapist about ignoring a no too.

Before I did the ptsd intensive, this wasn't happening in my life. But in that intensive we finally opened up the childhood neglect and now... It's like I won't let any authority figure or person that tries to take power over my life ignore no for a second.

That's not a good way to be, even if I never ever did yell.

I'm so glad you pointed out the pattern. Now that I think about it more, it is more stark that I first realized and it makes it all the more important that I do find a different way to handle this or it will happen again. I can change me. Or at least I'm trying to believe I can. I can have an authority figure ignore no and still say no and walk away and I will actually be safer in life if I do that than if I get stuck on convincing people to listen to no.

I know this. Intellectually. Behaviorally, I'm a mess.

:(

 

[Kintsugi]

Thanks for the update, JMH, and thanks also for revealing something I think I struggle with in extrapolating your own issues. :hug:

 

[joeylittle]

I can change me. Or at least I'm trying to believe I can. I can have an authority figure ignore no and still say no and walk away and I will actually be safer in life if I do that than if I get stuck on convincing people to listen to no.

You really can make change happen. What struck me reading your post, is how tough it is to confront, let alone change these things in ourselves that are really deep. It's hard and you are doing the work - you're looking to make it come together more for you in real life.

Something I think the other person is doing (sometimes it helps to analyze what they see as well) - first, remember, everyone has their own baggage, and you never know how much of their own stuff is showing up. That doesn't mean that you're supposed to give them a pass, it just means that it's really likely not just you who is having an abreaction.

Second, they are ignoring you (I think) because they have perceived that you are already in crisis - that you are showing signs of extreme distress. Maybe what you could focus on next is noticing within yourself the very moment that the anxiety or fear or anger starts to rise. I'd still encourage you to tie breathing into the muscle memory of things like this, because physiologically a handful of very deep breaths with a slow exhale (like 'blowing') can really help your central nervous system reset, and it doesn't take care of things 100%, but it makes them at least 50% easier.

But if you can notice that you're 'rising' - that might be the new time when you need to get yourself out of wherever you're at. Or, it's possible that just really noticing will let you then use some other skills that help you bring things to a close, instead of using an abrupt ending. Although 'no' is a complete sentence, most people don't allow others to walk away in the middle of something that is already heated - that's pretty advanced on the interpersonal skills scale. Most people will try and calm you down. And the calming is 100% unhelpful to you, because it is essentially negating your feelings and experience in the moment.

Your therapist might also work with you on some communication techniques to create stronger 'endings' - like, instead of a straight 'no' and walk out, standing up and saying 'I hear what you are saying, and want to take time to think about it. Thank you for your time.' - and then walking. People can still follow that one, but now you have a sentence you can just repeat. They say, 'I don't think we are done here', you say 'I have heard what you said and want to take time to think about it. Thank you.' You can say that over, and over. What's great about finding your own version of a repeating exit phrase is that it will protect you from actually having to think, or engage, or anything. My own short version of that one is 'I understand. I'm going to take some time to put all this together, and I'll be in touch. Thank you.'

One other thing, and then I'll shut up - whenever you have a chance to watch two people talking, or sit back and just observe how someone is communicating, take advantage of that. It's a little like being a defensive driver. Should it have to be your job to watch how everyone else is moving along with you? No. But is it really useful if you want to keep some command of your situation? Yes. I often think that what I really got in group therapy was tons of observation time on people just doing all the same things I did - minimizing, panicking, going to the defensive, whatever - except being able to watch it happening helped me see exactly how early it starts, and it was much earlier than I would have thought. Also, being able to 'read' someone else's issues is always going to give you some power/calmness/clarity in a situation, always.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

I do not think or believe that you did anything wrong at all. I was outcasted and gossiped about and shunned for speaking up and making a valid complaint. They almost destroyed me with this nonsense. You are so innocent in my opinion and you do have to get as far away from all of them as fast and as far as you can. Please do not talk to them anymore or read any emails to protect yourself. .
I really understand your self blame and the shaming of you was so cruel. You so deserve better. I think you handled everything right and they are clearly in the wrong. It was always this way, you are just waking up to it right now. Of course your friends are also shunning you. Clearly there is no real friend ship there at all.

It will be so very hard to make the break but it is a very toxic church in my opinon and you will only get wounded worst if you remain in contact with any of them ever again

You are confused because they are in denial of reality and are lying not only to themselves but to you as well. It is buisiness as usual there and you deserve to get free and unentangled from them. Many hugs.

 

[Neverthesame]

While I personally don't see the issue with wanting to get someone who isn't taking no for an answer to concede, especially if they are following me around. I am stubborn like that, and loud. But this is may just be a thing where our personalities differ. Which is fine. If you want to change your reaction to these kinds of situations, as you feel it will make you a better healthier person in your eyes, then absolutely do it.

I do however want to remind you that conflict of this nature isn't something that happens every day. Changing ones reaction to a very high stress situation such as this is difficult, as you have very little time and motivation to think about it in the moment. So all I want to do is remind you to be patient and kind to yourself as you work on this.

I also like your therapists idea about bringing all your stuff with you when practicing. :tup:

 

[Tinyflame]

@Justmehere , maybe not useful but it occurred to me neglect must include feelings of abandonment, I guess?

:hug: :hug:

 

[Justmehere]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Wow, I have realized a few things that are huge for me in reading everyone's responses.

Things are really hard right now, but I will write back in response to everyone more soon. I just to say thank you for helping me sort this out.