Redefining Mentally Ill

[anthony]

I am talking intent, conscious thought, planning and execution (pardon the pun).

Does that sound like mental illness? Conscious thought, planning, execution? That sounds like someone who is of sound mind and judgement. Terrorists do this... conscious thought, planning and execution (your words, not mine). Are they mentally ill? Or are they just bad people who want to do bad things to people?

Purely my two cents.

 

[Pencil]

Maybe your sister is simply undiagnosed with a mental health condition?

I have every reason to believe that she is, and I think eventually she will be diagnosed, but as you say, she'll have to self-destruct before we'll get to that point. Right now I can't ask for a psychiatric evaluation, as it will look like tit for tat, plus, the law states that for such a request made to a court I need to have seen her within the past seven days. I've not seen her in two years, which makes her 'allegations' that my child is in need of URGENT care and protection all the more crazy.

So, I'm biding my time. Softly, softly catchee monkey.

One positive thing that has come out of all of this is that I have developed superhuman self-constraint and true autonomy. And at the end of the day, @shimmerz , I wonder if we are not the lucky ones. I've wanted to say this earlier, but I know it could unleash a torrent of .... bad reactions.

 

[Recovery4Me]

@shimmerz (((hugs))) I am glad you continued to expressed your emotions and thoughts. I feel relieved that the thread was allowed to fluff out and that you were "heard".

If we can not work on ourselves here in safety and with the needed support among all of us, then where? I am grateful to see such careful monitoring as well as those efforts of contribution from our valuable members.

This is a challenging subject content with many of us emotionally invested with good cause. And still, we are plowing through with our hearts in the right place. Bravo to our site rising to the occasion!

 

[shimmerz]

Which comes back to full circle to me. I can consciously think plan and execute. So can many people who are considered 'mentally ill' or those that have PTSD. The posts that I see on this site are absolutely brilliant! We are not morons. We are not 'bad'. We are, however, smart enough to understand that we are accountable for how we deal with our issues. 'They' are not. 'They' are the ones I am speaking of here.

We are great people who have been damaged by those who feel entitled to crush souls. Is that mentally stable? I understand what you are saying @anthony and this is why I titled this posting the way I did. I am attempting to put out there that we should be looking at these people as a distinct group - victims of these types as another distinct group.

I know the havoc that these men can wreak on my life and everyone who knows me just has to stand back and watch because there is nothing they can do about it. On the upside, I see this for what it is now and although I have slid recently I am using my recently learned tools to catch myself.

I just have to wonder, could there not have been something that could have been done to avoid the mess that my life has become all because these men have made a game of targeting me? Is not my reaction right now a reaction that is normal based on what is a very abnormal situation? Is there nothing that can be done to stop this type of situation before it destroys lives? Should the fact that they prey on others not follow them through their lives instead of me?

Just something to mull over. Maybe you had to have lived it to understand how devastating it can be and to wonder if there is not something that can or should be done if only others saw

 

[anthony]

Don't get me wrong... interesting thought, and it's a pickle to think about.

 

[scout86]

@shimmerz , if what you're saying is something like "Wouldn't it be nice if the 'bad guys' were the ones who had to pay a price, rather than their victims?" I'm with you, 100%. Regardless of what causes them to have to pay the price. And, for many things, it IS hard to appreciate it as "reality" unless you have some experience of it.

@Pencil, when I read your description of the 2 kids, I was a bit puzzled. You mean that's not the way it ALWAYS works??????? LOL It was funny because it never occurred to me, until you used that example, that someone might find that scenario to be a problem. Where I grew up, that was "the way things were done". I never "started" a fight with my brother, but he provoked me to the point where I took the first swing. From that point, I "finished" every fight. Now I'm wondering if the result would have been different if I'd let myself lose...... (Probably not and I'm way too competitive to do that anyway.) On the plus side, those early experiences were where I began to appreciate that the only person I could change was ME, and I got really good at imagining the room without my brother in it, even if he was. LOL

 

[shimmerz]

and it's a pickle to think about.

It is indeed. This is why I respect so many of the posts in this thread. I am not certain but I think it was @joeylittle who asked - if I am not mentally ill than what am I? I have been thinking about that since his posting. I asked Ayesha (not tagging her as she said she didn't want to be involved in this posting anymore) who she was first. I didn't mean to offend her and I know now that I did but that was not my intention.

We are all stuck in this box and there is so much stigma attached to it - so many see us who are broadly labelled as a threat to society and we are not. I am attempting to challenge that. To get others to think outside the box. For myself I identify as a *nearing survivor*. A *fighter* (not a fighter of others but a fighter for myself. I am one tenacious son of a gun who won't give up until I conquer my demons. But these b@astards are doing all they can to take me down again and I am furious that after all the times that I have proven and shown them for what they are that I am the one trudging off to therapy, taking pills to manage my very real fear symptoms. And they get to say - don't listen to her - she is mentally ill and people believe that because mental illness is seen as a reason to ignore and dismiss.

I am fighting them and this label. I can't fight them properly until this label is not riddled with the connotations that society has placed upon it. I am fed up.

 

[scout86]

So, @shimmerz , what do you think we can do? You're kind of preaching to the choir here.

I honestly deal with it like I dealt with my obnoxious brother. "They do not exist. I am the only person in the room. There is no conversation to antagonize me." etc. I don't have kids and I have lots of people who think I'm "ok" just the way I am, so it's easier than it might be.

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

Okay, I think I understand something and I wonder if perhaps there is an error in wording?

Is that mentally stable?

You mean your abusers can not be mentally stable becasue they hurt you and that is very wrong but not really that they might have mental illness.

They can not be mentally stable becasue a mentally stable person wouldn't do something like that but sometimes people are just bad people.

However, I felt singled out by your wording but I have mental illness; Bipolar 1. Of course some abusers have mental illness but then...I think I wasn't the only person who misunderstood?

I do understand one may think its as easy as labelling mental health on anyone who does something bad... but it just isn't the case, and has far more to do with demographics and cultural upbringing than anything else.

Lumping mental illness and criminal intent/behaviour together and therefore trying to distinguish between them isn't the right thing to do in my opinion as I see it as not mental illness that causes criminality but criminality that causes criminality. By labelling mental health as bad, it only isolates people who do want and need help and those who want to help others.

Is this correct? Was it wording?

I'm hoping to help a bit more after clearing this up....

 

[Go Hungry]

Whoa.. This is a hell of a thread to get into. I say that with the highest respect for all involved.

I am mentally ill. No doubt about it in my mind. According to the Oxford definition.

Do I think that PTSD is a mental illness? Certainly. From what I've read on these forums it's also a kind of brain injury (and I was grateful to find that out.) Bipolar disorder is definitely a chemical disruption within the brain, as is Depression. These are all physical illnesses, but they are classified by their symptoms. And their symptoms happen to be behavioural.

I think the issue presented here, first and foremost, is the stigma around mental illness. Let's face it, it's all over the place; it is even in this thread, believe it or not. People are so afraid of the label, and what that implies, that they cannot bear the idea of living beneath it. I was afraid of the label's implications, even though I studied abnormal psych in college specifically to find out what was wrong with me. I knew the definition and symptoms of Bipolar Disorder on the second day of class. I still fought off the very idea of it for 9 more years because I didn't want to be mentally ill. I didn't want to be crazy. Couldn't stand the idea. Why is that? Because the stigma of mental illness in this world runs so deep that people are filled with prejudice that they aren't even aware of. :blackeye:

This thread is named 'Redefining Mental Illness' but I think it's really more about the stigma that is placed on the mentally ill, and also the lack of recognition among society at large about the criminality of cruelty. I know in the case of my abusers, two or three were certainly mentally ill, by the above definition. Honestly I think some of them had PTSD and just didn't know it. But I don't think that excuses their actions. They went around hurting people, plain and simple. Whether by compulsion or malevolent design or pure stinking animal rage, it doesn't matter. Their minds may have been bent; but their hands did the hurting, if you catch my drift. Altogether, it was Evil, straight up.

Evil exists. It is, in my opinion, defined by whether or not an action causes suffering. If there is no suffering, there is no evil. (That's just my opinion though.) But it's not a crime to be evil, or even taking actions that are Evil. Crimes have legal definitions, regardless of whether the intent is evil or not. Murder is a crime, is quite evil, and definitely harms someone. No question there. Possession of marijuana is also a crime, isn't remotely evil, and harms nobody (except maybe beer sales, but that's neither here nor there.:sneaky: ) But they are both crimes in the legal sense. And criminality is defined as the taking of actions in deviance from societal norms. There's the rub. Society defines what is normal, and those whose actions fall outside of that are considered criminal. (Thankfully they aren't as concerned with dictating morality through legislation anymore. :angelic:)

So it really comes back to what is stigmatized unjustly, and what is consider normal. Sadly, its not a perfect system. Humans aren't binary creatures; Life is a full colour affair, rather than being Black & White. And our world is terribly unjust. It is not Just that victims are blamed more than perpetrators. It is not Just that being poor is considered a moral failing. I think a great deal of this is because of the Just World Hypothesis. People can't stand the idea that misfortune exists. That bad things can happen to those who have no control over them. This is usually such a deep-seated, iron-clad belief that it survives even when they themselves are victimized. "That's Different." they will say... and then go right about judging other people according to some bullshit double-standard in their heads. (I could go on another 5 pages about this one thing, but I'll resist the temptation.)

So I think in this case, the real focus should be on de-stigmatizing mental illness, rather than trying to redefine it. The definition is a-okay, the cultural stigma is not. Regardless of whether you are mentally ill or not; it does society no favours to be blaming the wrong people, ignoring those who commit Evil acts, and finding some way to overlook misfortune.

(The following is purely my opinion, and hopefully nobody will get offended.)

I know how to fix this, but there's no way that it's going to happen without a staggering amount of work, and likely a generational rollover. The answer is through education, plain and simple. But good luck on getting the funding for that. So it's something that we are going to have to do ourselves, through our words and actions (and thankfully, posts on Twitter and Social media do work) to educate the world at large.

Discussions like this one are exactly what need to take place among every resident on the planet.

Awesome topic. :tup::tup::tup:

 

[Hashi]

I've looked through this thread but haven't read every single post in detail so please correct me if I've got the wrong idea because of not reading more carefully.

My impression is that there's a feeling of not wanting to be labelled a risk to others because of having the label of being mentally ill. I think that's fair enough. But you might be a risk to others. I don't think you can generalise either way.

What I wouldn't agree with is the idea that being fundamentally innocent but victimised/traumatised is one single thing, being "bad" whatever one's history is a different single thing, and only one label carries risk to others. I don't think it can be generalised, and I think overlap between different categories (or lack of it) depends on the individual and not a single definition.

I've been a risk to others. I've tried to kill someone. I've victimised people. If I'd been responsible for any children I would have deliberately traumatised them - sorry, but it's true. This was directly due to having PTSD from being traumatised myself. I don't believe I'm a fundamentally bad person. I don't believe I was somehow born that way. But I've certainly been a risk.

My traumatisers were all, as far as I can tell, traumatised themselves. Whether they were fundamentally bad people I don't know.

Maybe there are traumatisers who have never experienced anything out of the ordinary. I'm curious about this idea. I'm sure they exist. I wonder if they're the majority or even a significant proportion of all traumatisers. Again, people can fall into a category for sure. It doesn't mean we can generalise that.

I also don't really understand the idea of "culture" playing a part, because of all the sub-cultures within a culture. And even within that, people within a particular subculture will act and react differently. I'm wary of the culture idea because it has historically hidden abuse that happens in families/areas/situations that are considered "well off" in various senses, including professionally and economically.

I accept that there are people who have been victimised who are not a risk to others. That doesn't mean everyone who has been victimised is not a risk to others. They might be and they might not be, even if they started out as sweet as could be.

I agree with @Go Hungry that this doesn't really seem to be about definition but about ideas about stigma. I think it would be good to clarify if that's the case. Stigma is different from definition.

 

[shimmerz]

Wouldn't it be nice if the 'bad guys' were the ones who had to pay a price, rather than their victims?

Okay, so let's start with my idea of 'bad people' and go from there. Maybe we can get to an agreement of some sort. Bad people (to me) cheat their friends out of money at a card game, They are in it for themselves but they do not crush souls. So I don't really go for the idea that a 'bad person' is who I am speaking of here.

They do not exist. I am the only person in the room.

This is normally my MO. I just go about my business. But I suggest that we are talking apples vs oranges here. I am not talking about annoyance or aggravation (apples), I am speaking of people who will stop at nothing to completely break (or kill) another (oranges).

When I am not able to go about my business because someone is stalking and harassing me, when I have had mine and my friend's lives threatened, when they deliberately screwing with my psyche to 'weaken' me so they can go in for the kill, I can't use my normal 'live and ignore you because I want nothing to do with you' strategy.

To me, these are not simply 'bad people'. I will refer to them as soul or psyche crushers, They are those who, if someone calls them to task they target that person as well. Payback is a b*tch is not even a phrase they use. They attempt to annihilate those that dare to cross them or those that dare to suggest that there is something wrong with their behaviour.

It is true, this thread seems to have spun off into an 'I am afraid to label myself as mentally ill' direction. I am not afraid of labels. I know who I am and I know that regardless of my past I am competent (unless triggered), clear of mind (unless triggered), and a kind and caring person who is taking responsibility for my issues that have stemmed from my past. My full time job right now is to get help for myself, support others who are hurting to the best of my ability, and to get back on track again. All in all I am doing just fine in this regard. Until they started coming back after me again. I am at great risk right now of being thrown off kilter - badly.

What I take offense to is the broad umbrella that mental illness refers to according to the 'Oxford Dictionary'. Am I mentally ill or am I mentally wounded? Am I taking responsibility for myself and my actions? Do I have an awareness of my actions on others and do I care? Yes. Are you all here because you are not taking responsibility for your issues? I think not.

Here is a link that is greatly disturbing to me. Read it and weep. If you don't want to read the whole thing I will quote the thing that bothers me so and why I believe that the term mentally ill is a term that needs to be broken down and not accepted by those who are carte blanche placed under it.

"Mentally ill persons often commit unlawful, offensive, or morally wrong acts, and conditions under which these individuals should be held morally responsible for their actions are discussed."

WTF?????? Seriously? Fed up.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=177383

So yes, I know that some of you believe that I don't want to be labeled as mentally ill and that I want to label you as such. This is not the case. I am advocating for each of you in this post and asking that you really try to hear what I am saying. I think it was @Ayesha and her posts that keep coming back at me with 'what, so you think that I am ...... (lots of bad words here) because I am mentally ill? You wouldn't want to hang out with me because I am mentally ill?' HELL NO! That isn't what I am saying at all. I am saying that I want to challenge and distinguish between the mentally ill that I hang out with here each and every day and the people who DO commit unlawful, offensive and morally wrong acts. The stalkers who everyone turns a blind eye to, the idiots who beat their infants and children, the men and women who torture their spouses just because.

So if mentally ill people are defined as above according to the NCJRS then I want a different definition of what mental illness is because (again full circle) I am not one of those. Scre* the Oxford Dictionary. This is a government agency that states that 'mentally ill people often commit.......' - well you just read it.

I find this all disgusting. Not just for me but for all of us here who are doing our best to better ourselves and others' lives. The admins, the posters, the lurkers, all of us.