Setting Safe Boundaries With People Who Forget?

[arfie]

I am another one who sets my boundaries for myself. I shoot to keep those boundaries simple and too the point. One word or less whenever possible. "No." and "Stop." are complete sentences. I don't give explanations without a comfort zone large enough to hold a friendly libation. As for the need to repeat... I just make believe they are two year olds. Of course they are going to forget. They have a better chance of remembering if I keep it simple and patient.

Gentle support while you sort what works for you, Sunset.

 

[Sunset]

Ok can people stop on the yelling thing? I'm sorry I posted. Good to know that putting up with people pushing and pushing and pushing until you snap because the only other option is to exclude your family from your life entirely makes you abusive and bad and wrong. I don't DO that with people that don't force me to do that.

 

[sun seeker]

Like I said... can you try writing down what you've said so there is proof you've said it? It just seems like a logical solution to me.

 

[Sighs]

In my experience, with people like that there is little to no point putting stuff in writing. Proving you said it is not the point - you're not in a court. They are unlikely to say "Oh sorry - now that you show me that email I remember that you said that and apologise completely for my behaviour." Just doesn't happen.

When I left my ex many many years ago, he was shocked. I said, "But I told you that if you cheated on me again I would leave", He replied "well, yes but I didn't think you meant it." I did.

@Sunset - I don't think you should put up with people pushing and pushing and pushing you. And if the only way to make them understand that you will not put up with it is to exclude them from your life for a time - well, so be it.

 

[joeylittle]

Ok can people stop on the yelling thing? I'm sorry I posted. Good to know that putting up with people pushing and pushing and pushing until you snap because the only other option is to exclude your family from your life entirely makes you abusive and bad and wrong.

@Sunset, I'm not seeing where people are saying you are abusive and bad and wrong. This is what one member said:

Screaming although it may feel powerful, it is loss of control and considered by many as verbally abusive...Consider adding to your options a way that you might want others to treat you as well...with respect and open dialog.

I'm not bringing this up to criticize you - not at all. I only want to point out how easy it was for you to read a pretty neutral statement as harsh, and to assume an all-or-nothing kind of stance (put up with being steamrolled or cut your family out of your life).

You seemed to be saying that you don't like to need to scream; maybe it would be better for you right now to put down more boundary lines. Or decide in advance how many exchanges you are willing to do with someone. I generally hold myself to 3. As in,
them: you just need to do xxx
me: that won't work for me.
them: you're just being afraid. How do you know unless you've tried?
me: I've tried, and it won't work for me.
them: you should try again.
me: I'll think about that (and walk away).

Just a suggestion.

 

[Sunset]

The minute you bring up that something's "considered abusive", that's not a neutral statement. You may disagree but I don't think that's neutral language nor language that would naturally be read as neutral. If I said to someone in my life after they mentioned screaming, that screaming can be considered verbally abusive, they would take it as an accusatory statement. Nor is language about how it makes you "feel powerful" like you were talking to a teenaged bully - normal people in healthy, non-accusatory situations don't talk like that, and it's reading a huge amount into the situation that I never put down.

I feel like people aren't responding to the situation at hand though. I'm not talking about people who are ignoring or challenging boundaries like @joeylittle's conversation talks about. Rather it's people who when given the boundaries, agree to them and promise to respect them. But they forget the boundary very quickly, and they keep forgetting it, and while I value these people it's a constant strain on me to be enforcing a boundary they don't seem to ever remember - and it ruins the relationship because they feel like I'm unpredictable and going to walk off over something that was ok yesterday with no warning, while I feel like I told them clearly not to do something and they did it.

I can even after some work often get them to remember that they did agree to the boundary. But it just never seems to stick. And I don't want to cut people out of my life who I think are trying to be supportive over them forgetting.

 

[Friday]

In 2 parts : Warning Flags & Theory of Random Reward:

1) Warning Flags

If my son is waaaaaay out of line, and I send him to bed without dinner... That's a pretty neutral thing. If, for every infraction, I withhold meals? That's abusive.

To wit: even sending him to bed once without eating can be considered, by some, to be abusive. That's fine. They're welcome to think that a kid who eats 6 times a day skipping a meal twice a year will be some horrifically scarring event. It's not. It's; Dude. Welcome to seriously over the line, and bedtime. We'll discuss this tomorrow. You are confined to quarters. (If he pushes that, then it's grounded). We have pretty consistent levels of discipline. Certain things, like being banished from polite society? Follow certain events. The level at which he's banished changes with the exact nature of those events. The timing may well include missing a meal a couple times a year. No worries. He doesn't have attendant issues (like he's not underweight, diabetic, or anything else which would make that punishment dangerous, and need an addendum. His cousin, otoh, if I'm banishing her I need to provide snacks, as she's diabetic.).

My mom's a yeller. Over every damn thing, it's operatic levels (she did used to sing professionally, woman has major breath control & projection). From someone dropped a spoon, to being cut off in traffic, to the mail being delivered to the wrong place, to it being 9pm, to... Pick an event. If she's angry, sad, distressed, startled? She's yelling about it. We universally ignore her when she's yelling. She's not abusive. Simply loud. Very. Very. Loud. ((Although she is often confused as to why we ignore her when she yells. Um. Really? We're supposed to know that this scream-fest is important the last 40 were completely inconsequential? How?)) Some people would consider the yelling abusive, based purely on volume. It really isn't. She's never mean, and if you simply turned the damn volume down, what she's saying is all perfectly reasonable. It's just at ear-splitting levels. She's never out of control, and it never escalates.

However... Screaming at people, and withholding food? Send up warning flags. It's the context that either lowers them, or not. Which is why each of those things got a paragraph of context.

We all do things that send up warning flags. Because abuse & neglect are, by their nature, normal things taken to extremes. It's nothing to get het up over, unless it's something where the context makes things dicey, you know? Like yelling when you've lost control. That's concerning. It's less the yelling, and more that you're repeatedly in situations where you're losing control. It shifts the focus. Does something need to be done about your friends/fam? Yep. However, something also needs to be done so that you're not losing control. 2 issues instead of 1. S'alright. Lots of things break down into more than 1 issue. Especially with PTSD.

If it's still too hard to look at what you actually did when you snapped... Try substituting something you don't do. Like hitting things, throwing things, kicking things, breaking things, etc. All of which can be done in normal / not abusive ways, and which can be done when someone snaps, and can be done in abusive ways. Ex) Someone who hits things may regularly work out on a bag. Someone who hits things when they snap may hit a person or a wall (or march out to the bag, depends on the level of control still present). Someone who hits things abusively may target people or objects.

It's not saying you're an abusive bad person. If you scream at people when you've snapped... There are tools to use to circumvent that. Both ahead of time, and in the moment. So that either you don't lose control to begin with, or you get your control back fast enough that you aren't taking out your anger on others.

 

[Friday]

2) Theory of Random Reward

Best illustrated in toddlers... It simply translates to -as people- we respond best to random reward & consistent punishment.

Ex) Toddler wants candy at store. Parent says no. Toddler pitches a fit. Parent gives candy = Toddler has just learned that pitching a fit = reward. And, their brains more than any other brain, are wired to look for patterns. (It's how we acquire language). Adults do it, too, but toddlers will then apply the new knowledge everywhere. It's otherwise known as the foundation behind the Terrible2s or Terrible3s. Because somewhere, somehow, a fit is going to be rewarded. Either by attention, a treat, something. Aaaaaaand each and every single time reward is withheld for a time and then given? It simply resets the clock. Meaning if a parent is really good at ignoring (or disciplining) temper tantrums for up to 12 minutes? Each and every single one will last for at least 12 minutes. Until the parent holds out for 34.5 minutes. Then? Each and every single fit will have a new clock on it. Eventually, kids learn discrimination. Injuries get attention, desires for candy do not. Grocery stores get prizes, church does not. Daddy carries sweets in his pocket, Mommy timeouts. It takes about a year for kids to get the rules established in their own minds as to when/where behaviors are acceptable.

But we never entirely lose it. We seek out behaviors/ times/ places where we get rewarded. In an extreme view, that's gambler's superstitions (I was wearing this jersey when I won 4 times! Doesn't matter I've lost 400 times! 4 times a winner makes it my lucky jersey). In a manipulative view, this is teachers who toss out candy for intelligent questions (makes students pay attention about 1000x more often, and a very participatory class. Lol. Even when students don't even like candy. The attaboy that might come? Keeps students engaged far more than the A for participation / set reward). In a driving point of view; we take the road which might get us there faster in a rush than the road which has an expected time travel on it. Even if the other road means things will be slower if we don't get lucky with the lights. There are actually dozens of ways this theory gets used in application. Ranging from the extreme to normal. A random reward is something we are absolutely wired to seek out. To try and make happen. Simply by being human. It's part of pattern recog. Same way we deconstruct everything bad that has happened. Trying to look for something we might change. If something always happens? It's boring. We ignore it. If something unexpected, out of pattern, crops up? On it like white on rice. If we liked it? How do we make that happen again??? If we don't like it? How can we make that not happen again???

How this applies:

You've trained your friends and family that they can push, and push, and push, and push... Until you snap. There is no consistency in it, because some days you'll be on the edge, and others you'll have a lot of patience. In leaving the negative consequence up in the air? It's rewarding bad behavior. The push & push & push. That's the reward. Getting what they want. If they can push&push 30 times in a row, and the 31st you snap? They'll keep pushing 30 times in a row. Reset the clock. So you snap at 5 times? They'll keep pushing. Once. Twice. Five? She held. Okay. 15. Do we hear 15? 30? And JUST like toddlers, they'll push in different times & places to try and get the reward. Find the pattern. ((Swear to god, raising toddlers has made it so much easier to deal with adults! Adults catch on faster, but still have the same reactions and responses toddlers do.))

It's not a conscious thing on most people's parts. It's not like they're trying to push your boundaries. (Unlike therapists, who are trained to, or abusers who turn it into an art form). It's simply part of being human.

How you combat that... Is consistent punishment. Instead of rewarding bad behavior based on a whim (aka when it's too much for you to handle)... You draw a soft boundary, and a hard boundary. Soft boundaries are where you're willing to negotiate. Hard boundaries are when you act. BOTH before you snap. So it's an action on your part, not a reaction.

That's the trick on boundaries. It's an action. On our parts. Not theirs. It becomes a conditioned response on their parts, because they learn to respect that if X=Y. It's consistent. It's boring. Nothing to push.

 

[Recovery4Me]

This is an ongoing struggle I've been having

I had thought you meant that your "struggle" was your choice of behavior or the reaction. It would be one assumption within this day of age with the many court ordered anger management classes being doled out and the escalation within the USA Domestic Violence situation or work concerns.

As well with many having PTSD emotional- regulation is a buzz word. But I hear that you feel "entitled" to defend loudly and I accept that as your position without reflecting on you in judgement. The opinion of loud discourse (or yelling) for communication being destructive is one of society's current positions on the behavior choice.

Since "other" people focus does not always change the dynamic and you do not wish to give up the people nor stop the tactics that are not working...you will have this struggle until change is made. It is called "stuck" by some within a codependency program. So some elect to change within their selves with resources, literature and behavior choices. I was one of those who wanted to break a family pattern and stop raising my voice.

For example Step One:
We admitted we were poweless over others, that our lives had become unmanageable.

~~~~
Step 12 is about reaching out to those who suffer and want change.
I will leave the thread in/with respect to you but I wanted you to know...I am glad you had the courage to post your dilemma. Peace out...

 

[xkane]

I have been through what you are describing. This may sound harsh, but really think about this, for a long time, and notice patterns you've seen. I STRONGLY advise that unless these folks have alzheimer's, you get away from them and avoid opportunities for them to continue to violate your boundaries. I "forgot" IS NOT AN EXCUSE after a certain point! YOUR NEEDS ARE TOP PRIORITY.

Abusers "forget" because they don't care and therefore can't hold the memory in their brain, and/or they are lying, manipulating, and forgetting or "forgetting" is a profound denial and offense to very serious needs that you have. Its a direct assault to your dignity, your health, your life. It's one thing if a person forgets once or twice. Don't be fooled by how "nice" people seem most of the time. If you have to snap on a person because they have repeatedly overstepped boundaries, then that most certainly should be the last time and a quality person will grow from that, meanwhile those people who are phony will try to make excuses, blame it on you, and run off from the relationship, and these are people who don't deserve to be in your life anyway. There comes a point when nothing but harm is waiting around the corner because you're dealing with a person who keeps forgetting again and again and again. This means they have issues that are not in alignment with your needs.