What Happens In A Church... Can't Be Talked About With My Therapist?! What?!

[Ivan the Elder]

JMH, You are very welcome. Happiness works both ways. The simple fact that you understand my distress and like my drawing helps me feel even better as does the fact that I may have in some way helped you. We can all help each other and that is always good for all of us. You are going to pull out of this current problem and you are already on the way. You will end up better in many ways, I am certain of that.

 

[Ronin]

@Justmehere, I know this will sound eff'd up but - if your friend's gone? They isn't going anywhere - meaning you can grieve any time later. You're not doing your friend a disservice & this isn't a disgrace or mocking any; your life is simply turbulent, things will come together in their right time.

Kudos on reaching out for help. You're doing self care, that's a biig hill of work done, that it seems like bitey itty ants does not make it less huge work.

 

[seedling]

What I find interesting is that this whole situation came about because you recorded what someone said to you that you would have forgotten about otherwise. You previously would not have been aware of the nature of the situation (if I'm understanding your dissociation correctly).

This has moved (launched!) you in to dealing with something that you would have gone to every length to avoid (by forgetting).

It's no wonder it's brought so much up. I hope the doctor can help you get your physical self regulated again and therapy can help you deal with what's brought up. You've handled all this exceedingly well. Sought help and acted on that help to create a positive healthy outcome for yourself. Hang on! :hug:

 

[Neverthesame]

you recorded what someone said to you that you would have forgotten about otherwise. You previously would not have been aware of the nature of the situation

That, is bloody brilliant.

I don't know about anyone else, but I know that if I must step in some poo. I want to know it was there ahead of time.

@Justmehere I don't really have anything new to add. But I want to agree with the others here and say, I think you've won.

Don't get me wrong I love a good row, especially when I am right. But it's looking like these people are just trying to drag you into a miserable little war of attrition. In which case. The best thing you can do is walk away with the knowledge that you have them completely ditched.

I for one am very proud of your ability to think clearly and stand your ground through this. I honestly feel that the best thing to do now is take some time to get yourself back to a place where you can feel stable, eat, sleep and resume living.

As has been said already, if they contact you, just tell them to leave you alone, they'll take the hint eventually.

Very sorry you are going through all of this still.

Do you think you would be able to hold down something like a meal replacement shake? Not the greatest tasting things I know, but they are alot of vitamins and minerals in a small package. Even if you can't drink a whole one, just put it the fridge and have a sip when you can. Better than nothing to be sure.

 

[joeylittle]

There's a great deal you're dealing with, @Justmehere, and I hope you are getting the in-person support you need.

I do know that in some states, medical conversation is not privileged unless there is a mutual agreement for care, or the physician is assuming care. Doctors aren't priests. But, it sounds like where you are at, Joyce was wrong.

Without being critical or attacking you, I do want to encourage you to look at this whole event when you've got more distance on it, and see if you can find the ways in which you made choices that contributed to the escalation.

Not because it's your fault - but because this is a type of situation you've found yourself in before, and while you can't ever control another persons actions, you can control your own, and in ways that are likely to extricate yourself from snarly situations without having to experience the level of inner pain that you are at.

I really think the interpersonal effectiveness techniques in DBT might give you a different way to look at things. Of course, I'm a big DBT fan (not quite in the classic therapeutic model, I just believe in the concepts and their usefulness), so that's my bias.

I also wonder if you feel as in control of your responses to stressors as you'd like. I know, for me, it's still like wrestling a snake to keep myself from immediately firing back an email to someone who has pushed a personal button - but it's much, much better for me when I force myself to wait before acting. It's kind of like that concept of learning to avoid thinking with one's feelings.

But what is most important right now is that you make your way back to solid ground, and it's great that you are taking steps to do that. All the rest of this post is just food for future thought.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

I know, for me, it's still like wrestling a snake to keep myself from immediately firing back an email to someone who has pushed a personal button - but it's much, much better for me when I force myself to wait before acting.

You sure have that right. I frequently now do not enter the address of the person (usually my ex wife) that I am sending an e-mail to. I also frequently do not use the reply function but create a fresh e-mail with only the parts I am replying about included. Then, once I have written whatever I save the e-mail and leave it in the "Drafts" for a while. By leaving out the send address I can't just hit the send button and away it goes. I then look at it some time later when I have had a chance to cool down or think about other things before I think about sending it. I have quite a few I end up never sending. Others I go through and edit a lot to take out the things that weren't very nice at all.

There has been more than once that I have hit the send button and then within a second wish I hadn't. Too late then and I just gave myself more crap to deal with. E-mail does help to reduce the quick exchange of totally emotional conversation but not entirely. You still need to think about what you are writing and give yourself some time to settle down to a more even level, especially when the subject is inflammatory. Also, with written material there is no tone, no body language and no eye contact. It is so much easier to be misunderstood with e-mail. I now go to great lengths and often will "over explain" what I am talking about just to make sure I am not misunderstood. Misunderstandings have been a huge part of the bad events in my life this year.

 

[stillstanding2]

I do actually agree it was a bad idea. I shouldn't have left the recorder on when I walked into the c...

There's a lot going on in your email, dear, but I won't say much that others have not said. Do know that you are without fault in your narrative, even in the cases where you lost your temper.

You sought understanding and didn't get it. You were betrayed by people you thought were friends. Your bible study group leader tried to manipulate you, and was not only supported by your pastor, but the pastor himself ignored your interests for his own reasons, thereby compounding your stress.

You may think this is a unique situation, but it is all too common, not only in churches, but large corporations and government agencies, where power lies with controlling people. Leaders don't like conflict in the ranks. Even the little mini-managers, such as your study group leader, hate challenges to their authority and judgement. And the heads of organizations are threatened by non-agreement by the little guy.

In a way, you are a potential whistle-blower, having witnessed the incompetence of the so-called leaders who have relied on your compliance and humility. Churches are among the most radically self-righteous institutions on earth, desperate to construct around themselves an aura of infallibility. Pastors and their officers sometimes persuade themselves that they are appointed by whatever god to lead. (The preachers who can gain "charismatic" status can be superstars.)

But little you have been victim to their ego games, and could make what you know well-known if you wanted to. You hesitate to break the "trust" of the people who broke your trust. You don't want to tell your therapist all about the church's ill treatment of you. But your hesitation to tell anyone about what you know is what your church is counting on.

I know what I'm talking about, having undergone long-term efforts to discredit me when I knew dangerously embarrassing facts about very powerful figures.

The clearest tip-off to me that you are needllessly having to deal with similar dynamics is your pastor's insistence on emailing and texting you when you have already said "no". Only by creating the appearance of a written paper trail of his concern and benevolence, can he try to reinforce his unselfish, Christian spirit. The worst thing you could do might be to fly off the handle, scream or curse in replies, or otherwise flout his "kindness". In his case, blocking his number from your phone or computer would leave him writing only to himself. Let him dither alone about whom you might tell that he is a fraud.

Keep writing to the forum, and good luck with everything. I call myself stillstanding2 for obvious reasons.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

I know what I'm talking about, having undergone long-term efforts to discredit me when I knew dangerously embarrassing facts about very powerful figures.

Yes indeed. I was in a very similar situation for about four years. I spent that long dealing with the primary federal government agency here that is responsible for disability payment approval. They did everything possible to deny me my legal rights. It went as far as lawyers on their side actually breaking the law in a number of ways. That included writing a denial of one of my appeals where the denial included information that did not exist in any of the boxes of documentation regarding my case.

They did not understand that when I am right I will never give up. It finally ended when I took the case to a federal minister of the government, against all normal ways and methods of dealing with such a case. I keep very detailed records of everything and if I write it I can prove it. The result was approval of my case in just one week. That was followed by over 1000 people being fired in the federal government in areas directly related to my case. I wasn't directly responsible for that but I am sure my case played some part. Among other things in the end of this case I sent a legal brief to a federal judge, about 250 pages long. I am sure when that was reviewed the so called sheet hit the fan. It also ended with them paying me a substantial amount of money. And no, I am not a lawyer but I do know how to think like one.

The basic rule when writing anything is that you be able to fully and without question support what you write. Otherwise you are not just wasting your time, you are also putting yourself at risk.

 

[stillstanding2]

Yes indeed. I was in a very similar situation for about four years. I spent that long dealing with the prim...

Congratulations Evan! There is such a reward in beating them at their heinous game. Once you set a precedent case, they may spare others your ordeal. My case was against one of the most powerful agencies in Texas. It lasted an exhausting 10 years, since the opposition had retained the only attorney who had ever handled a case like mine. I had to handle it myself while working there, rearing my young daughter alone, and juggling life-long PTSD.

I won my case, including a cash and upgrade settlement, dismissal of several high profile bureaucrats, and the pleasure of writing a new policy for the department personnel manual making it a firing offense for supervisors and managers to harass or bully their employees. Several people wrote to thank me for that. So like you, I'm no quitter. I still have PTSD from several factors, but I know I did something right. Thanks for the note.

I hope justmehere can feel encouraged that others who have been pushed around can partially heal by putting most of their faith in themselves.

 

[charliehotelwhiskey]

I just finished reading this thread and I had to stop number of times to let my blood pressure go down.

Justmehere, like all the others had said, I strongly believe in you and you did nothing wrong. As a Social Service Worker student I was shocked at the actions of "Joyce". How unprofessional she was and her lack of ethics. I am glad that you reported her.

I also struggle with PTSD and I dissociated a number times myself the worse being I lost a week of my life and even today i can't recall it. I only know that I lost a week because a friend told me the exact same things I said to her again a week later about planning a trip to visit her. So I get it when you record your day in order to recall later what happened. I wished I had thought of that back then. It is something I am going to put into my self-care toolbox.

Reflecting on the everyone's posts I am reminded of what I read on Pinterest about what PTSD stands for.

It stands for:

Proud
Tough
Strong
Determined

Justmehere and all of the rest of you, I wish you wellness.

CHW

 

[Ivan the Elder]

Yep, when you are right then don't back down. Most government agencies, corporations and even some religious organizations depend on people giving up even when right is on the side of the person they are shafting. Maybe I should say "especially" when the shaftee is in the right. This is where Justmehere stands (was standing?). She is in the right so taking any bull from the people giving her trouble is not something she must put up with. In this case I think the best is to leave them to their own devices and simply forget about them. Find some place that is good and will look after people when they need help.

I was extremely lucky to pick the church I am attending now. They are some of the best people I have met in a very long time. They go well out of their way to help me in any way possible. I also discovered that I know a number of the people there from many years past which makes it even nicer. The people I know are all long time friends of mine that I haven't seen for years. I very much look forward to going to church every Sunday. It has become the best day of the week for me, without question. I am certain that my church is not the only good one, there are likely many more like it, probably the majority.

For JMH leaving the church she has been involved with is not a bad thing. It will be the beginning of a much better time in her life, much as I am now finding.

 

[stillstanding2]

There's a lot going on in your email, dear, but I won't say much that others have not said. Do k...

I apologize if this post is tiresome to some, but this thread has pushed some of my own PTSD buttons and I can't let it go without pointing out a couple of things.

@Justmehere, you may not realize it yet, but you are in a uniquely heroic position with your story. There could be many, many people who could benefit from it. And you can stay anonymous if you choose.

You had the great judgement to use this forum for one of it's best purposes. You honestly presented your facts to get feedback from your peers. And the results have amazed me. Uniformly, people in this international group have supported you without criticism, and clearly condemned the way you were treated. Your documented experience has illustrated the potential danger of any person or organization requiring unquestioned secrecy.

I know you have other issues to deal with, and it may not be healthy or wise to prolong attention to this one. Ask your therapist.

But here are the thoughts of an iconoclast. There are likely other people, both in your church and in others who have been intimidated by the kind of behavior you have endured. You may be the exceptional person to have said "no", and even have a recording as backup.

If you trust your therapist completely, I think he or she should hold a copy of that recording. If you were I, you'd also put a copy of it in a safe deposit box, along with a full print-out of this thread of opinions. Perhaps your therapist can help decide what you might do then. You may do nothing further.

However, a couple of alternatives to dropping the subject are your option to use on behalf of perhaps thousands of people who have been bullied in similar ways.

I agree with others here who have alluded to cultishness in regard to your treatment, so I'm not alone in suspecting that what happened to you is just one instance of ill treatment by your church officers. It sounds as if they've had practice at it.

Their unannounced policy of secrecy may have been used on others who are afraid to speak out. Your former "friends" may already know of other instances, but fear similar banishment from the congregation. They may be "brainwashed" themselves.

If so, what are they afraid of? What else is your church leadership so desperate to hide? Does your pastor have a larger organization to answer to?
Does he fear exposure of scandalous or harmful practices? Has he made your friends shun you out of fear for themselves? For their very souls? Isn't church about worship and fellowship?

My experience is that when something smells rotten, it usually is. We with PTSD may have some of the best noses for that. Could the rot in your church spread to a higher level as we know happens in the Catholic Church in cases of child abuse?

Was your experience just one example of broader malevolence in your church? My guess is "yes." When your pastor insisted on texting and emailing you, even after you rejected the idea, he may have been hoping to trigger an angry or even irrational response on paper that he could point to in his own defense. He was attempting damage control should you talk about what happened. Why did he feel the need to do that? Is there more to the story than even you know?

You might prefer trying to forget about the whole matter now. However, you could safely enlist an advocate to ask some questions that your pastor and bible study leader might be pained to answer honestly.

A competent investigative reporter, perhaps from out-of-town, might relish the opportunity to examine irregularities from normal church functions. He or she then might unearth leads to other questionable practices, cruelties or even crimes in your church. Your involvement as a confidential source could be staunchly protected, since your therapist could serve as the go-between with the journalist.

If done carefully, you could stay out of the line of fire when your abusers are forced to explain themselves, not only to the public, but to their own "superiors.". Other people might come forward with more facts, not only in your church, but in others. Think of the children and other vulnerable people who could be spared abuse if their church leaders feared exposure.

I don't know your church or community, but it doesn't matter. Injustices occur everywhere. But with enough daylight shone on bullies, they usually stop their harmful behavior (or try to escape to somewhere else) leaving their victims free to recover. If the upper echelons of your denomination sense scandal involving your church, your pastor might lose his job, or find himself transferred to a very unpleasant place. Can you see him doing mission work for a few years in Mongolia?

Some of your former friends might even welcome you, after they have had time to clear their minds of their own fear. That is, if you can forgive them.

I'm perhaps more belligerent than you. That was thrust on me as a child trying to survive. But it truly is mind-settling to successfully fight back, especially when other innocent people can benefit. Being considered by some to be a "loose cannon" on the deck of a slave ship can even feel like an honor. You've already helped me find words for some of my stressors. So thanks again.

Whatever happens, you know you are tough and smart. Maybe sometimes you can find heart in listening to Paul Simon's "The Boxer". It's about people like us.