Isn't abuse black and white?

[ILoveLife]

I'm sorry @WishfulThinking123, and I understand.

I honestly don't care anymore, I treat whatever is in front of me. Luckily I have a very good T.

 

[Yasmine]

May I suggest you ask the therapist the question
"Isnt abuse abuse ? How do you think it is assisting me and helping me move forward discussing black and white thinking " IF her answer isn't good enough perhaps ask your self the following ...

" Is the therapist or therapy type or both really helping me? " If it isn't or worse if it's traumatizing and or invalidating you in any way can you access the help of an appropriatly trained and caring professional elsewhere? :-)

SOME if not all abuse, particularly narcissistic, psychopathic and any covert , manipulative abuse ( as it's so ephemeral and can be so covert and hidden until one takes a step back and looks objectively at it and them there's the cognitive dissonance and self sabotaging behaviours it can provoke in the victims as well to deal with ) and childhood sexual abuse might be best dealt with by a therapist who works and is WELL trained in PTSD and childhood trauma ( and I don't mean a two day PD)

 

[420kitty]

I think there is a gray area with abuse. For example, 'gaslighting' seems like a gray area to me. Some people don't realize that are doing it.

 

[Teasel]

Someone not knowing they are being abusive takes nothing away from it being abusive.

 

[Sideways]

Perhaps there is some grey area when you consider that not every act done by an abusive person is abuse.

I'll use my experience to avoid stepping on toes. I was the victim of child sex abuse. That's pretty black and white. Wrong, evil, bad, black & white.

But my abuser was also one of my school teachers. So , there were times when we were in class where:
- his behaviour probably falls into pedophilic 'grooming' and probably wasn't ok; and
- he treated me as innocuously as the other students; and
- he didn't really pay me any attention at all; and
- he was legitimately behaving towards me as a teacher trying to teach a student.

So, if you take the whole spectrum of his behaviour, while he was having sex with me? Black and white. Abuse. Not ok. But at other times? It's varying shades of grey. Some of the time it was grooming stuff, but a lot of the time it wasn't, and a lot of the time it was somewhere in between.

When he crossed the line into abuse? That's black and white. But the rest of the time? Varying shades of grey.

This wouldn't apply if the only interactions you had with an abuser were clearly abuse. But even then, there would be times when they're behaving in acceptable, or possibly acceptable, ways towards other people.

That doesn't make what they did ok. It doesn't mean that they are otherwise a "good" person that you need to like or forgive. But it does introduce 'grey' areas into their behaviour.

 

[WishfulThinking123]

@Bearlinda this is a really good point that should be explored....For example, emotional abuse sometimes it is meant to target a child or adult and make them feel worthless but, sometimes repeated emotional abuse is out of the perp. own issues with anger and they honestly don't mean to hurt the child or adult or don't know they are even being abusive because that's how they were treated.

 

[WishfulThinking123]

@Ragdoll Circus You brought up some excellent points as well. I am really sorry that happened to you :(

 

[Teasel]

@Bearlinda this is a really good point that should be explored....For exa...

Yep x

 

[Yasmine]

Perhaps there is some grey area when you consider that not every act done by an abusive person i...

I'm so sorry this happened to you but I think part of the insidious nature of abuse IS THE GREY AND WHITE PARTS. Especially in childhood and adolescents , I believe its called trauma bonding when the the abuser is alternatively nice, normal and abusive. You as the victim want the other person to be kind again and it sets up some sort of compliance in the victim. ( this isn't the entire story of trauma bonding I don't really understand trauma bonding entirely but I felt it, wanting the person to just be nice because they CAN BE NICE )

Surely this hideous person had abuse in mind when the grooming you ( again I'm so sorry ) this, to my way of thinking, isn't grey at all its well thought out and planned, setting the ground work for abusive behavior and actions in court its called premedition
I can only believe it was this persons intention to abuse you and once in happened any contact with you possibly made you feel traumatised so just being near you after what he did was abusive, in my opinion.
What pisses me of is the entitlement these . people must feel ....to hurt a person , especially a child or anyone who is not as empowered and or as fortunate as the abuser is never ever OK I'm sure an abuser can't help feeling the way they do but to act of this impulse with premeditation is inexcusable

I hope I am not minimising the gravity of what happened to you by also commenting on the person who said gas lighting isn't something one is aware of but I am tired and feel the need to say WHAT? GREY ! My experience of this is it is VERY WELL UNDERSTOOD BY THE ABUSER if it wasn't it wouldn't be gas lighting it would be a person with very bad memory or possibly an alsimersers suffer who's confused and that's not abusive behaviour

I do however agree that it does matter if its understood by the abuser to be abuse .
I also think abuse that is intended to harm or hurt others or premeditated matters. For example in PTSD some people react violently to triggers but are not acting this way with premeditated harm to the victim in mind and they are sincerely sorry and hadn't set out to hurt anyone they don't deny and say the victim is crazy it didn't happen ( gaslighting) nor do they reframe , minimise or hide the actions of the abuse they say sorry
When the a abuser minimises, lies about it to other people and the victim ( gaslight) or blames other people for their actions and doesn't allow the victim to have a voice these twits deserve nothing but our contempt

 

[Yasmine]

@Bearlinda this is a really good point that should be explored....For exa...

I agree and appreciate this point has merit BUT it doesn't lesser the impact and I think , with the education and understanding we have had in the last twenty or thirty years , at least in the developed world , if one is unintentionally abusive they would actually acknowledge it after the fact to the child and explain it to them by saying " I'm sorry I yelled it was all about how I was feeling and not your fault if this happens again and #%&$* yells at you like that please know its because of $&-%%#%" and not about how much I love you or your fault but if I do tell you off for doing the wrong thing and i dont yell then that's different "

These people would seek help if they are financially able to or try to lessen the behaviour . I think ( this applies to the way we've , I think , thought since the 80s ) if the person ALLOWS THE CHILD TO ALWAYS FEEL THAT VERBAL, EMOTIONAL, NEGLECT OR PHYSICAL abuse ,( other abuse surely couldn't be unintended ) is the fault of the child that they are bad or unworthy or at fault all the time without the parent at least trying to minimize the child's pain or rectify bad parenting ITS IN MY OPINION more scaring to the victim and not ever OK it may in some extreme instances be underable but NEVER excused

 

[WishfulThinking123]

@Yasmine You make some excellent points and I didn't mean that it being unintended lessens the impact...if anything it just makes it all that more confusing. I agree with so much of what you've said, for example sometimes when my son spills his milk my initial reaction might be to sigh because I'm aggravated but, I immediately follow it up with I know it was just an accident, don't worry we'll clean it up together. This is a totally different reaction then what I got- which made me feel completely awful... Yes, so many good points made up above- as parents we are all human but, I agree the difference is if we follow up with apology/make amends and try to do better or do we just make excuses. My mother for instance often does the same thing over and over again and either makes excuses- I'm just stressed, tired etc... or says she cant help it with the "I'm sorry" in front of it...My T stated it's only an "accident" after X number of times eventually if you're not making any effort to change does the apology really mean anything any more?

 

[Yasmine]

@Yasmine You make some excellent points and I didn't mean that it being u...

Thanks wishful thinking yes I'm sure an " I'm sorry " isn't very meaningful it it happens over and over again. ..I have to say during my worst period of several years ( for me SSRIs were helpful only in numbing me to the pain and made me lethargic) I often apologised and even said I'd change ( I wasn't volatile just in a constant state of inertia and just wasn't functioning " on all cylinders" so wasn't for filling any of my roles well ) I really did lack the motivation to do anything about it and it took a massive trauma again to make me try to better myself and a disaster in my life to get real help and find some in site into.. anything really..

But while these types of situations explains why SOME people don't seek help or fail to change their behavior it doesn't excuse my behaviour at the time or anyone else's nor does it make it any easier for those around them to thrive or just be happy and retain a sense of normality

So no, constant apology isn't helpful if the same behaviors are repeated over and over again without the person even attempting to change, especially not to those who suffer as a result of it

I think even worse are those like your mother who I assume simply ( I am making a massive assumption here correct me if I'm wrong ) are in some way abusive in the moment because it meets their needs in that moment but because it works for them the choose not to change it despite the pain it causes other people especially growing children

You sound like a wonderful mother and a caring
kind and patient parent especially as you had a parent who wasn't because you didn't see any different mothering

I do think we must excuse those in my grandparent age bracket they are in their early eighties and before not for abusive behavior but for using corporal, but not extreme beatings, and yelling as they weren't are ( I don't think) and it was normalised by society ( I think ) maybe that just my grandparents. My maternal grandparent's were not as kind to my mother and the emotional and physical ( and I suspect sexual ) abuses were and would never have been excused

The other point I wanted to see if you agree with ( if it isn't rude of me to ask) is the phrase used today " put yourself first " I hardly ever hear anyone add that this ( and this obviously is my opinion) doesn't apply to dependant small children that YOU CHOOSE TO HAVE nor should it. Yes please take care of all your needs as a parent its doubly important too do this but work this around your child don't expect them to fit around you. Sometimes financial needs need to be meet by both parents but this is just as much for the child as for yourself to meet basic needs but when I see parents both saying something like " we know putting ourselves first is the most important thing " my blood boils because it simply isn't true , my mother felt this way and also used it or at the very least believed it justified her selfish behavior.

I think before self help experts make this point the should explain exactly what it means when they say it. Healthy functional people understand it but those of us who didn't know a boundary from gate growing up need clarification of the phrase "put yourself first " or is that just my thing ?