Wow, lots of good thoughts, does anyone here feel like it isn't quite tied together as a concept though? This is what I'm wondering. I don't care for BB's talks either (except when she said vulnerability to a Texan is ~'locked and loaded' :p :tup: ), but partly because it's incomplete, I'm guessing? I think it's encapsulated here:
^^ This is so true I think. It's not just the vulnerability that helps decrease shame, it's what kind of response follows. And the sooner it follows if positive, I believe the less entrenched shame or guilt is in particular circumstances. But being vulnerable, to me, feels like 'aka what terrible thing is coming next/ eventually?' So maybe, too, it's related to anxiety(?)
^^^ @Suzetig , have you thought about 'Imposter Syndrome'? From the success you've described and your confidence, would that ring a bell?
I think BB is more useful for everyday than trauma related.
Some ideas (Idk) I have:
-it's not related to self confidence
-it seems to have a component wherein we blame ourselves, without exception, 'we' are somehow responsible, (and often of things we can't control), like the examples quoted below:
So, not only is it 'who we are', but what "we" have caused(?), or how we deviate from the average, or what we've wasted, +/ or how we've brought it on ourselves, or not been resilient. Self-blame.
I find myself in this position @somerandomguy describes:
The vulnerability is not a choice. Neither would I say it reduces shame. I try to live (and speak) honestly and openly (when I do), but the only upside is I (seem to) reduce others' shame (in my job), maybe since for those who have it, since I am not ashamed of them, they become not ashamed of themself? And that's how it relates to others. It can't be lessened by hiding it; it's increased by further shaming, and hopefully accepted/ reduced by the presence of others who don't see it as we do, maybe?
Because something I noticed is, BB says when people are asked to describe something, they describe the opposite, the 'lack of'. What I don't think she said though, was 'why is that'? And I think it's not just vulnerability that stops people. Like @Swift said, for some of us, even being vulnerable feels shameful. And I know from myself, there came a day it happened to me, without my choice or desire or consent. I think it comes from losses increasing and strengths to manage that decreasing. Until one day you're just in whatever hands that are there, come what be. But the shame will stay the same, increase, or become somewhat absorbed.
And to remember we are more than the product of what we are focusing on, the event or thought that's filled with shame. (Pretty difficult, with triggers, FB's and intrusive thoughts when they occur).
For a long time I didn't think I had any shame, because I was focused mostly only on others' needs, though in my heart I hated myself/ was disgusted. Still am (don't get me started. :rolleyes: :( )
But in another way, I think, who knows how long I'll or others will live, park it at the door (aka hide it or avoid it), and get on with life. But it's one part probably not all that makes me feel worthless, or 'contaminated' (I wouldn't call it 'toxic' because I no longer think I'm 'contagious'- which is actually progress, stupid as that sounds).
I think we need outside backing or support. So in that way it can't happen if it's not voiced.
(PS, sorry this is so long.)
ETA sorry, just one last thing to add, I think this is something that BB doesn't tease apart as I recall: she says guilt (or blame?) is `what we did', vs shame = what/ who we are. But if what we did or do is partly because of who or how we are (including ptsd), +/or we feel responsible, then we have shame. And if we have shame for who we now are or who we were, we feel that is who we are. Is that not circular reasoning that reinforces each other, if that premise is followed? ie How can we decrease shame (since she's saying it exists because we equate it to 'we are bad', vs a bad thing happened), when we are assigning or feel it appropriate to assign, as being precisely due to ourself? :confused:
OMG, I just realized I feel ashamed for posting all that. :eek::eek:. Goes to show you! :rolleyes::sick::meh:
^^ This is so true I think. It's not just the vulnerability that helps decrease shame, it's what kind of response follows. And the sooner it follows if positive, I believe the less entrenched shame or guilt is in particular circumstances. But being vulnerable, to me, feels like 'aka what terrible thing is coming next/ eventually?' So maybe, too, it's related to anxiety(?)
^^^ @Suzetig , have you thought about 'Imposter Syndrome'? From the success you've described and your confidence, would that ring a bell?
I think BB is more useful for everyday than trauma related.
Some ideas (Idk) I have:
-it's not related to self confidence
-it seems to have a component wherein we blame ourselves, without exception, 'we' are somehow responsible, (and often of things we can't control), like the examples quoted below:
So, not only is it 'who we are', but what "we" have caused(?), or how we deviate from the average, or what we've wasted, +/ or how we've brought it on ourselves, or not been resilient. Self-blame.
I find myself in this position @somerandomguy describes:
The vulnerability is not a choice. Neither would I say it reduces shame. I try to live (and speak) honestly and openly (when I do), but the only upside is I (seem to) reduce others' shame (in my job), maybe since for those who have it, since I am not ashamed of them, they become not ashamed of themself? And that's how it relates to others. It can't be lessened by hiding it; it's increased by further shaming, and hopefully accepted/ reduced by the presence of others who don't see it as we do, maybe?
Because something I noticed is, BB says when people are asked to describe something, they describe the opposite, the 'lack of'. What I don't think she said though, was 'why is that'? And I think it's not just vulnerability that stops people. Like @Swift said, for some of us, even being vulnerable feels shameful. And I know from myself, there came a day it happened to me, without my choice or desire or consent. I think it comes from losses increasing and strengths to manage that decreasing. Until one day you're just in whatever hands that are there, come what be. But the shame will stay the same, increase, or become somewhat absorbed.
And to remember we are more than the product of what we are focusing on, the event or thought that's filled with shame. (Pretty difficult, with triggers, FB's and intrusive thoughts when they occur).
For a long time I didn't think I had any shame, because I was focused mostly only on others' needs, though in my heart I hated myself/ was disgusted. Still am (don't get me started. :rolleyes: :( )
But in another way, I think, who knows how long I'll or others will live, park it at the door (aka hide it or avoid it), and get on with life. But it's one part probably not all that makes me feel worthless, or 'contaminated' (I wouldn't call it 'toxic' because I no longer think I'm 'contagious'- which is actually progress, stupid as that sounds).
I think we need outside backing or support. So in that way it can't happen if it's not voiced.
(PS, sorry this is so long.)
ETA sorry, just one last thing to add, I think this is something that BB doesn't tease apart as I recall: she says guilt (or blame?) is `what we did', vs shame = what/ who we are. But if what we did or do is partly because of who or how we are (including ptsd), +/or we feel responsible, then we have shame. And if we have shame for who we now are or who we were, we feel that is who we are. Is that not circular reasoning that reinforces each other, if that premise is followed? ie How can we decrease shame (since she's saying it exists because we equate it to 'we are bad', vs a bad thing happened), when we are assigning or feel it appropriate to assign, as being precisely due to ourself? :confused:
OMG, I just realized I feel ashamed for posting all that. :eek::eek:. Goes to show you! :rolleyes::sick::meh:
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