Let’s talk about shame!

[Stronger]

I think that this thread had an impact on me last week, somehow I came to the conclusion that my shame isn’t going anywhere. Today, I asked my T if she can teach me how to cohabitate with my shame because it is here to stay and I have accepted that as a personal truth. She gave me an odd look. Then she said that I don’t have to seek or try to make it go away, through processing my traumas, eventually it will dissipate on its own. She seemed pretty confident about that. I guess I will wait and see.

 

[Mercy Joy]

Suzetig, I did read where you said ‘garden variety’ and I agreed with you there. I wasn’t speaking about what you said as you weren’t hating on her. :) It was some of the other stuff that was said by others. A close friend of mine who has been struggling has made leaps and bounds by reading and watching Brene’s work so it made me sad reading some of the hate on her. Everybody’s entitled to their own opinion, of course.
I think this thread talking about shame is great. It just hit my heart in the wrong place seeing her name dragged through the mud a bit after how my friend was just telling me how much better she was doing.

 

[Suzetig]

Different strokes for different folks I think, some will find her work really helpful.

My T and I were talking about empathy for self today, the idea that I can offer nurture and understanding to my younger self (instead of the shame and blame I tend to heap on her). I need to find a way out of this, shame literally keeps me stuck in all areas of my life and I’m frustrated as all hell that I’m still dragging this around.

But the idea of prizing myself is so alien - I can offer other people empathy and care, can see how they’ve ended up where they did but really don’t give myself an inch. I do wonder if empathy might be the way through - can I empathise with my own situation enough to accept I did the best I could and stop blaming myself?

 

[Mercy Joy]

EveHarrington, I have definitely experienced toxic shame. That’s why I clicked on this thread. To try and see if others might feel similar to me or if I’m just a freak of nature. My shame runs deep. When I learned what vulnerability was and I was able to open up a little to my therapist (which was such a big deal. I had been with her for a long time and was still a brick wall) (and no, it wasn’t some magic cure-all as shame is still one of my biggest struggles but it did get me thinking). And I was sad about seeing Brene made fun of because I had just gotten done speaking with a friend who finished her book not long ago and is doing so much better. She was so excited to tell me everything she has learned and changed in her life. And then I get on here and I guess it just hit me wrong.
I don’t think my intent came through in my original comment up there. I’m sorry I posted.

I’m so sorry you’re carrying around all that, Suzetig. I think turning empathy on yourself is a good idea. You deserve gentleness and grace.

 

[ILoveLife]

Well.. Changing the subject away from Brene Brown..

I've been thinking about this.
I think shame is keeping me from moving forward in terms of relationships.
Shame of my body, shame of my mental health, shame of past, of past relationships, etc. I'm completely frozen and it screams in my ears that because of all of that I'll never be able to be in a relationship. It's driving me bonkers.
I actually have a chance of moving forward, instead my reality right now is laying in bed with my cat because cats don't judge.

What am I supposed to do, though?
Expose myself and allow other's proximity? Done that, didn't go well.
I'm actually ashamed to admit I need help with this. Maybe not in this thread, this is more of a sympathy post.

 

[Suzetig]

You have my sympathy, I hide more than anyone would guess - sometimes physically in bed with my cat and sometimes psychologically in social media/online stuff. Exposure is a real challenge and yes I think shame can massively inhibit every area of our lives if we let it.

For me that means really challenging myself to be in a relationship, not pushing away the shameful feelings but gently testing the water with others to see what kind of response I get - all the while not listening to the shame-talk in my head.

It’s very hard work.

 

[ILoveLife]

Thank you. The sympathy was towards you @Suzetig, but I accept yours as well.

And yes, every area. I'm just now tip toeing around not being ashamed of my academic skills. Just to enroll in uni with a simple email has been a struggle.

Exposure does work well for me but brain always throws a tantrum after.
Subject to deal with T, I think. Its that serious.

 

[piratelady]

What am I supposed to do, though?
Expose myself and allow other's proximity? Done that, didn't go well.
I'm actually ashamed to admit I need help with this. Maybe not in this thread, this is more of a sympathy post.

I haven't read the author people were talking about earlier. My therapist seems to think the answer lies in trusting people and being vulnerable with people. That being said, the only person he's encouraged me to be vulnerable with is my husband. Maybe it's a matter of who we are vulnerable with and then in having that be a positive interaction it will help chip away at the toxic shame? I don't know. I don't have any other suggestions on how to deal with it, but it seems like there has to be a way.

 

[ILoveLife]

trusting people and being vulnerable with people

Vulnerability is a two way street with lots of pot holes. It isn't cut and dry, oh look now I'm vulnerable, oh look now I'm not.
I understand the basis of that premise, but also think for us with trauma it isn't that simple. I trust people around me and I'm actually pretty vulnerable around them, but my shame hasn't diminished. In some cases it was intensified... "I'll never be this healthy" crosses my mind a lot, "I've made them uncomfortable" is another, neither of which is necessarily true.

it's a matter of who we are vulnerable with and then in having that be a positive interaction it will help chip away at the toxic shame?

I think with the right people it's indeed helpful to not feel shame on the spot, but it doesn't mean it's not that.
One of the reasons I didn't click with my last T was because she thought I should keep my mental health diagnoses to myself. That might work for some, but not for me. For me it's much more shameful having to hide it than being open about it and deciding, depending on their reaction, if those people are worth being in my life. It's actually self preservation.

Recently had a "friend" shaming me for behaviors when I was psychotic, then implying that since I'm no longer psychotic I have lost my sparkle. That was incredibly shameful for me, but made me realize it's not a person I want in my life.
Another friend also has mental health issues and I can speak with him about a lot of things, he makes me feel at ease in disclosing my shameful past for example, without judgement, but when I get home I immediately regret talking to anyone about it and can mull it over for days on end.

It's really difficult.
I do agree with Suzetig that the only way is through exposure.

 

[Still Standing]

I remember I had to do an autobiography for a training course I was on and the nature of the course meant disclosing some of my trauma. I spoke of something I was particularly ashamed of, that happened to me and remember people in the group gasping aloud at what I had said. Now, I get they were shocked and wanted to show how awful the situation was but my immediate thought was “you can’t handle me, or my experience - I’m too much, I’ll never speak of it again”. And I didn’t in that group.

This post is interesting, to say the least. Shame. Just catching a certain look from someone can cast me into the dungeon of shame which couples with condemnation, inferiority, and stupidity. For me they seem to be nest mates! But, speaking of my need and abuse history, sharing my traumas with a few close friends or a pastor or counselor, in the past, has been acceptable only because I was fortunate that they had compassion toward me, accepted what I had to share, and validated the pain and abuse. Knowing that I was believed and not seen as a mutated human being, and was still considered part of their social group, helped to ease the shame I carried. For me, I need validation that I am still a valued person. The cause of my shame did not cause me to be rejected by them. I was still considered an equal. (Although I reject myself and self-isolate as a form of punishment for my shame, on my own. It is harder to get it through my thick skull that shame does not have to be my bedfellow.) So, I think shame is countered by positive and sincere validation for whatever is the cause. And then validation that I am worthy of friendships and capable in whatever task I take on. Somehow, I think, we need the nurturing and building up of our better nature, like children receive in a healthy environment, when growing up. I need nurturing. Not syrupy, over-indulgent, pats on the head kind, but simply encouragement that I am valued and appreciated and seen as someone who is deserving of life and relationships, like the rest of the world.

 

[Tinyflame]

I agree with @Still Standing . And also contrasted to the times I've been shamed intentionally, usually for intimidation and always in secret. And perhaps they did it in secret, because it revealed more about them than it did about me?

However, yes, hard to ignore. Or, for me, hardest to ignore the end product, that the shame or shaming isn't valid/ justified. The only thing I can ignore is acting on it , (not) isolating, (not) letting it dictate my actions, even if I'm not convinced in my heart it isn't so (valid).

But yes, this is true, and difficult:

simply encouragement that I am valued and appreciated and seen as someone who is deserving of life and relationships, like the rest of the world.

ETA It came to me this about shame though (for myself), and it's a lot like shyness: provided there is safety, the person in front of me, and what they are feeling, is more important to me than what I am feeling (about myself). That, in it's own way, precludes shame.

 

[EveHarrington]

My self hatred is so immense at times...this is intertwined with my shame. Vulnerability doesn’t work because everyone can (IS) tell(ing) me how great I am, how smart I am, how I’ll be able to meet my goals...how they don’t see me as I see myself...but the self hatred component is just too big....too big for simple vulnerability to be the answer to shame.

And this, I believe, is where I differ from those who can be helped by vulnerability. Regular people don’t have self hatred like I do, they don’t have self hatred that has driven them to many suicide attempts. Regular people can not fathom why anyone would want to die. Completely different mindsets!

Sorry for rambling. I just have no idea how to deal with the shame. It’s got me locked up right now and I’m not moving forward.