Other Let's talk about torture.

[Freida]

Ive been thinking a lot on the idea of being broken and professional vs non professional and...not really sure what I think tho LOL

Professionals have an end game and know how to achieve it.

It's weird to think of him in terms of "professional" but then I think of all the equipment he had and how he used it and how methodical he was. I mean, he brought IV bags in to keep me from going into shock - that's pretty prepared. So I don't think he was just a run of the mill oops I broke my toy kinda guy. I'm fairly sure that breaking me was the end game. Which is a hard thing to wrap my mind around to be honest, even though it's not a new thought.

He had to keep me alive - but he didn't have to keep me sane.
Wow. That sentence sucks.

. You don’t go insane if a professional is torturing you. You almost always do if a f*cktard sadist pos is torturing you. I’ve experienced both. And seen both.

I cant decide if this makes it worse or better. The professional label is kinda freaking me out

The way in which you shattered? They had zero control over. No finesse. No skill.

But that's the thing. I'd have to say that for him there was a lot of skill and control. Each step was obviously thought out - at times he even read it to me out of his "playbook." He was the same way with Tiffany -- very calm, very controlled, explaining what he was doing, no rushing or fussing..... yep. the term methodical keeps coming up. He only lost his temper once and it was fairly obvious that was a mistake because he thought he had broken my arm.

One of the retreats I was at showed a documentary on military crap, and they interviewed people who were responsible for torturing people to get info out of them and how they regretted doing it. I actually had to get up and leave because they were talking about how they wanted to be forgiven for what they had done as "part of my job". Nope. Big f*cking nope. I couldn't make it make sense in my brain, that they might not have enjoyed it.

But now it makes me wonder if there was a difference between those who torture "for a reason" and those who torture for entertainment. Idiots yes. But very well prepared idiots who have a well thought out end game?

Blaming you for it? Means THEY suck. The more you believe it, the MORE they suck. I know. It’s a bizarre paradigm. But also a true one.

Had to think on this one too. I know I blamed myself for opening the door and not being able to escape, but not sure I blamed myself for what he did to me along the way....... which seems kinda weird now that I see it in writing. But the more I think about it, I don't think he ever told me that what was happening was my fault. He wanted me to be in pain, and he wanted me to know he was the person doing it, he wanted to make me crazy, but I don't think he ever said why. It was just him having fun. The pictures were insurance for later and for trophies true, but at the time it was just more degradation and whatnot to entertain him in the moment.

ugh. You always have the good stuff to make my head hurt! Good thing I have t today!

 

[Weemie]

But now it makes me wonder if there was a difference between those who torture "for a reason" and those who torture for entertainment.

Forensically and psychologically? Absolutely. I am one of the people who tortured for a reason. It was part of my job, or my role. I have regret for what I did and I experience remorse. I did not always experience remorse, and I still struggle to feel guilt, though I have in brief moments (both guilt, and grief, but not sadness). I do not possess a desire to be forgiven by my victims.

My only desire for them is that they themselves are able to heal and let go of any shame or despair they feel, as I do not wish for them to feel bad. But, if they do, that is theirs and they have every right to be. I just don't want them to suffer, but I know that I can't prescribe my desires onto them. It's not about me. It's about them/you.

Of course, I understand that you and many others on here consider my actions differently as I was a child at the time (and my capacity for mens rea was reduced accordingly) and I tortured others in my role as a specialist recruit under extreme duress. I made the decision for them, to ensure that they survived. I took their choice from them. I made the decision that I would cause them pain, trauma, disabilities, mental illness, etc. so that they would live.

In my mind it was binary. If they do not want to live anymore, they can kill themselves. But in that moment, I picked life. There is a difference between me and someone like Bruce or Kyle. They tortured for fun. They tortured for sexual gratification. They tortured for sadistic glee. They were bad at torture. They didn't know what they were doing beyond repeating shit they'd seen in movies and read in books, just to see what happened.

The only exception to this was F, he was methodical because for him it was about profits and money. I was put into a role that I needed to understand inside and out so that I could train my kids and they would be able to handle clients and ensure abuse and ultimately make $$$. Under F I endured a lot of stress testing and limits testing, I learned to resist different torture techniques and police interrogating in case I got arrested.

I did not enjoy torturing others for sadistic or sexual gratification. Sometimes I did like inflicting harm because I found it cathartic and I had anger issues as a kid. I was violent on my own many times. The torture aspect was fitted into an overall bigger picture and it is neatly tied into the indoctrination. To this day I still feel a measure of pride in how well I handle stress and how good I was within my role. It was entirely devoid of feeling. I had to push past my natural inner resistance toward hurting others. Like pushing past a physical barrier.

Thus, the profile of someone like me and F and someone like @Ice_Fire perpetrators, is quite different. We were all about either the money, the group cohesion, and our roles/survival. I was indeed just doing my job. Which was a necessity in my child mind, I had to do it. F didn't have to, he chose to (sort of, see my other posts on volition and determinism for an expanded perspective), but even between F and M (hotel client who egregiously harmed/possibly killed a little girl) the difference is plain.

One is pure self-gratification. The other has some kind of role or purpose. The latter people will be therefore be less likely to be randomly violent, and be more prosocial than the former, who are more likely to be genuine psychopaths or sexual sadistic disorder/pedophile, etc. The former is also less logical and more impulsive and chaotic.

 

[Freida]

ss. I made the decision for them, to ensure that they survived. I took their choice from them. I made the decision that I would cause them pain, trauma, disabilities, mental illness, etc. so that they would live.

When it all comes down to it the decision you, as a child, made was to save them, even if you had to harm them. That's why you aren't in the torturer category

e other has some kind of role or purpose. The latter people will be therefore be less likely to be randomly violent, and be more prosocial than the former, who are more likely to be genuine psychopaths or sexual sadistic disorder/pedophile, etc. The former is also less logical and more impulsive and chaotic.

Long exhausting conversation with t about this yesterday on the definition of perpetrators of torture. Lots more clarity of just how bad it was. Recognizing just how terrifying he was just because he was so calm. How pleased he was as his plan went along. The difference between him using me directly and the use of props and tools to create pain. A reality check of this event compared to my other traumas and what a huge difference on the scale of bad. Reviewed criteria for sexual sadist and it still checks all the boxes.
Very tired today.

 

[Ice_Fire]

Spoiler: Trapped in a box

so today in therapy I found myself taking about something very shameful. And very young. That T has said before counts as torture even before this added piece of nastiness. I mean, he must have known just because of the situation. The hours in a cupboard. T has kept discussing it, titrating it. And the days, literal days locked away in my bedroom. Obviously one cannot go days without the toilet. The shame of that. The fact mother used to relieve herself on my stuff. And then to add insult I’d have no choice but have to go *somewhere*.
I…oh god. I admitted at one point drawing on the walls, with my own…goddamnit this is hard. With my own poo. I remember drawing a 4, I have no idea if that was my age at the time or just coincidence but I know I was very young. T was like “yeah in the context of most f*cked up situation a child could be in I think doing that would be normal”. Telling me I’m not especially weird or gross. It’s one of the most shameful fragments of memory I have.

 

[Weemie]

It’s one of the most shameful fragments of memory I have.

This is actually a very normal response to being placed in situations with prolonged lack of stimulation (i.e solitary confinement) and reoccurring trauma both in young children and in adults as well.

When I was inpatient people would do stuff like that, it's something that happens when you completely decompensate emotionally, and is a sign of extreme stress. Any parent who has kids that are doing something like this it is a red flag for high degree mental illness, extreme abuse, intellectual impairment, etc. There isn't anything shameful about the kid, people don't voluntarily behave like this unless under severe duress.

I spent about six years locked in a room (for the most part, not for 2,000 days in a row but pretty much most of the time) and used to draw on my walls with markers, I also had no choice but to relieve myself there since there wasn't another option.

I didn't do that specifically but I do remember I would like shit my pants and then dig it out and put it in a box lmao??? Shrug. I was like a similar age, four or five. I pretty much assume I knew it was supposed to go in the toilet and was trying to do the "correct" thing and also a little bit of like "maybe if someone sees they'll let me out" or sth. Kid logic doesn't always translate, but it's pretty understandable if you don't have another frame of reference.

This stuff has a fairly profound impact on children, I was being assessed for autism and had pretty bad linguistic delays, I turned out to have RAD but you could tell it severely f*cked me up. I would hallucinate and stuff as well, and it set the groundwork for what happened later on as I was uniquely suggestible and followed orders easily, had no emotions, etc.

 

[Ice_Fire]

@Weemie 6 years… damn. At least my parents took me to Nan’s and I went to school and stuff.

Yeah T was being gentle with his “that’s normal”, he did reiterate it later saying it happens and he also referred to it as solitary confinement.

The pants thing and then not knowing where to put it…*sigh* well that triggered (not getting at you at all don’t mean it like that in the slightest). Memories shoved so far down and now they’re saying hiya.

 

[Freida]

Wow. My hypocrite button is showing because while I'm telling you that you have no shame for any of these things I'm also refusing to talk about what happened to me after being tied to a bed for 4 days or some of the tasks assigned related to that because of the shame. Sigh. File under work in progress for future Freida.

So back to you and no shame!
As my t has spouted endlessly, bodily functions are bodily functions. They don't have a brain, or an emotion. They just do what the body needs as it is designed. It can be controlled to a point, but it can't be stopped.

It's we humans who attach shame to it. So when the bad guys create an environment with something we are taught from a young age is shameful, even when it's nothing but bodily functions, just for the purpose of tormenting and torturing it's going to hit deep, deep into our psyche. And when they do that to a child, who hasn't even had a chance to understand what the body does with or without permission, it's even worse.

I can't even imagine the sheer confusion a child would feel -- they've been potty trained to know it's "bad" not to use the bathroom, then they are left with no options by the same people who taught them what is supposed to be right or wrong. Talk about heinously mixed messages!

 

[Ice_Fire]

can't even imagine the sheer confusion a child would feel -- they've been potty trained to know it's "bad" not to use the bathroom, then they are left with no options by the same people who taught them what is supposed to be right or wrong. Talk about heinously mixed messages

I’d not thought of it like this. Hmm, that’s going to have to sit in my brain for a bit.

Also, right back at you with the shame thing. It’s much easier for us to tell each other there’s no shame in it (same goes for you too @Weemie ). Hard to apply the compassion to oneself.

 

[Sideways]

Mod note:
Reopened