Deemed "untreatable."

[Animalliberator]

I happily gave you a very clear, simple explanation of the shower exercise.

Lost Pup, I do appreciate you providing an explanation. To you and perhaps others, your explanation may appear clear and simple. But I couldn't understand it. I couldn't get my brain around it. It could be that I'm a more logic-based person and others are a mixture of logic and feeling, neither of which is better or worse than the other. So while your explanation is simple and clear to you, it reads like a foreign language to me. I honestly just don't get it.

 

[Abstract]

Hi!

You have resources available to you that can help you on this very difficult journey. You are have kept trying therapy so there has to be a lot of you that wants change. You live your life non violently and it seems you have strong beliefs about animals. You have managed to stay alive and keep fighting. You have other skills too.

We all have thinking patterns and behaviours that are unhelpful to our recovery. These are the things that slow us down in our journey in my opinion. That is the big factor with complex trauma and when trauma starts early and if we haven't had healthy parenting to allow us to build up positive ways of dealing with things.

I know BPD is misused a lot and people can be quite ignorant about what it includes and doesn't. There are 9 criteria and 5 are needed to get the diagnoses so one person is going to look very different from the next. It is merely a blanket term that describes certain difficulties in managing internal wellbeing and interactions with others. There are professionals who are negative about it but there is really good data on how treatable BPD is when treated correctly. You don't have to continue in the pain and struggles that comes with this painful condition. Even if it is complex trauma and not BPD then the same applies.

For me I can clearly see how my personality issues slow down my recovery. I see it as forming a brick wall around the trauma that makes it difficult to get to it and get to it safely. Not all treatments work for me and some I have trouble finding a way to get them to work for me.

You are not to blame for these difficulties you are dealing with. You obviously have had a lot of trauma and it is understandable that these things are the consequence. I have absolutely no doubt that you can find a way to work on recovery though.

No, I do not accept grounding as a concept. Sounds like more woo-woo stuff to me. Again, I don't operate in that kind of airy-fairy world.

This is the way I would describe this rigid and black and white thinking: it is absolutely fine to look for treatments that are mainstream and have widespread support and to avoid wacky or unproven treatment. This isn't the case though as grounding is a universally supported essential to managing PTSD. Grounding is such a fundamental and essential part of dealing with PTSD that I personally think it is impossible to ever heal without it. Impossible to manage exposure treatment safely without it. Especially when someone has had a lot of trauma.

Instead of discussing the difficulties you are having doing grounding you rather dismiss it as "woo woo". The science of why we need grounding is so fundamental to understanding the science of PTSD that is extremely concerning that you could come to that conclusion.

There are two separate issues here. The one is that it seems you have had a lot of trauma and your way of coping has pushed it down. When you try to take the lid off even a little your safety is threatened and you are overwhelmed by re living symptoms. The second is that instead of seeing these things as the obstacles you need to get past you discard all safety and skills based techniques as woo woo. Especially concerning since you would not be able to find one good scientific resource on PTSD that would not say that grounding is essential. Someone with a single trauma as an adult may be able to rough ride it through exposure therapy without it but that does not describe you.

If you had come here and rather discussed the specific difficulties you were having in using grounding, exposure therapy and relaxation then this thread would look totally different. You would also find many people with similar difficulties and find out how they managed them.

There is lots of grey in life. The world is filled with it. You are not alone in finding things that we need to manage PTSD very difficult at first.

 

[Abstract]

I am going to give the grounding topic one more go. I suggest not discussing somatic therapy as that isn't essential to your recovery whereas basic things such as grounding are. Grounding is also thought of as essential by ALL experts. No ifs buts or maybes.

Think of this: someone seeing people from the past in front of them and physically feeling the things that happened many years ago. Sounds woo woo to me. How unlikely that this could be possible. They are not there. These things are no longer happening. It must be hokus pokus.

But our brains are confused and they do think it is the past. They loose touch with the present. We dissociate and are removed from our present bodies and environment.

In order to manage exposure therapy safely we need to develop skills that bring us back to that present whenever we need to and to be able to control that slipping into the past. The skill of being present in today is called grounding. It is a label that encompasses many things.

If there is a lot of trauma and re living that spills out every time we go anywhere trauma then we need to develop a lot of safety skills to be able to use whenever we need to. In therapy, out of therapy, in work, in life. Especially in therapy. It is the only way to safely process the trauma.

The symptoms you get when you focus on your body with mindfulness skills are ones that I have experienced too and I know I am not alone. There are ways around this though. To start we can do mindfulness that doesn't focus directly on body in that way. I wouldn't do the water shower exercise safely. I am told there are ways to slowly develop safety with this too though and I aim to be able to get there at some point.

The other skills I have developed though have made all the difference and are putting me back in control.

 

[zaniara]

You still haven't answered me in the first thread you started. (And it's not much point in trying to 'chase' a person who shun from deep conversations but still state he/she is open for help. ;) ) But I will say a few things:

Nearly all of the 50 therapists I've seen have told me that BPD is not "curable" and very resistant to any kind of treatment. When I was hospitalized some years ago, the therapists at the facility told me that BPD really could not be helped, that any gains I would make would be marginal, and that most therapists refuse to treat Borderlines because they are too difficult.

This is just rubbish. "BDP"(a diagnose; just a tool: not 'the whole truth', since every person who fill the criteria for this diagnose is different and unique) There are several treatment courses for BDP. But all of them need the patient to be willing to do the hard work, and stick to the treatment. And not all people have this willingness, and since people with these wounds within themselves have this problem with black and white thinking, it's difficult for them to stick to something that will(and this is bound to happen; since deep inside this person is a pain so great that the person have found these destructive ways of protecting it self from this pain) hurt a lot. This is why a lot of professional don't want nor is able to work with people with BDP. But some are.

I must say one thing that make me a bit scared of being attacked for saying it. I'm a bit shocked and sad by the aggression some of the people in this thread has responded with. (Some of them are people I know are good people, who have a lot of good stuff to say/share; and who normally don't act that way.) But I understand too why you stir up this response, because your way of interacting with people is creating conflict. On/off you use a language that is offensive, and by doing that you step on peoples toes. Also you seem to reject a lot of the kind responses you get; and either not respond to them, or just reject what they are saying. = all of this are what people who fit the criteria for BDP do: and are part of the desctructive behavior that keeps them trapped in isolation/pain.

Either way I don't think you deserve being met with aggression, neither do I think it is helpful to treat a person who suffers and are ill with aggression, and therefor I am a bit saddened. I'm shocked, but not surprised, since we all in here are people who suffer from PTSD(and sometimes other problems as well). I don't take sides in here, but I felt the need to express this. I'm happy though to see Abstract's and some of the other kind responses. And I agree with all of what Abstract is saying. And I think Anthony is right too: that unless you face up to and deal with the BDP you will not be likely to be able to treat the PTSD/traumas. Since you will not be open to the healing because of the BDP.

I too think you really do seek help: but that part of your problems are destroying the possibilities for you to be helped. I'm sorry that so many people have told you so much rubbish: and turned you down. But also I think you do sabotage, without being aware of how(as seen in this very thread). (But all of it is very 'normal' for a person who fit the criteria for BDP.) You compare treatment for mental illnesses with the treatment of a broken bone, but that's not really working. Since it's two different things. Healing physical things does not requirer you to do very much, but to agree with and go through the treatment; which has little to do with emotions. But healing the mental problems has ALL to do with emotions. (And emotions are hippy dippy-things too, right..) A lot of the treatments for BDP as well as PTSD are proven effective through hard fact research. So it's not really hippy dippy in the way you try to say it is. (I'm not talking about SE here.. And I think you would benefit from not discussing that topic anymore, since you are not even interested in it or likely to benefit from it right now.)

If you want to get better you need to be more open: like open to discuss things without using condescending words(like hippy dippy or woo woo or similar words: you could just say that it doesn't make sense to you, but you don't have to label stuff with condescending words: since doing that is actually creating a lot of negative interacting with others).

I really do think we were on to something in the other thread, the first one you started. But you abandoned it, and started a new. (Where all hell broke loose. :D ) Did you shun away from something in the first thread that was painful? If you do shun away from all that is painful you will never, ever heal. But I do sympathize with needing to take it slowly, since it's clear that the pain inside of you is so great that you have big problems with handling it without being overwhelmed and feeling the need to shut down/run.

 

[zaniara]

Also I do recognize the problems with 'grounding': and it being very, very tricky(and by no means giving relief in the beginning). Since doing it can make all hell break loose inside: and too much of the bad stuff come out at once. (As your wife has witnessed.) But in a safe relationship with a therapist I have been able to handle it differently. But it has all to do with that relationship: with being connected to someone, and being that also made all hell broke loose inside at first(and on/off: still, but less and less often and less and less strongly). Since the pain in my past was so bad, it made it very difficult for me to even get connected for real with anyone. SO thus you need to work on your problems with relationship/trust first, before dealing with the traumas.

 

[Abstract]

Very well said @zaniara and I totally agree.

 

[Animalliberator]

Abstract, I really appreciate your time and patience. You always have such compassion and understanding in your posts. Thank you.

I respectfully disagree with you about grounding. I've tried it for years and I've come to the conclusion that it is a crutch used to distract - much like addictions are used to distract. Grounding isn't dealing with issues. It is a temporary escape that provides no long term or lasting relief. I've attempted it for years and had no benefit from it. It is one of many techniques that therapists use that requires a client to accept with blind faith but with no evidence it actually works.

 

[rainy_daze]

I think there are people who find a false sense of identity in their own illness. It is like one doesn't have an identity without having a diagnosis to label themselves with nor do they ever want to find the answers because then who are they?

Brilliant point. I'm still reading this thread, but I wanted to respond to this. I think if you're entrenched in thinking all you are is symptoms of whatever label is on you, you'll lose yourself. Identity is important for me. I can't simply be only a person who was abused, or a person defined only as someone trying to cope with PTSD, and other things related to this. I'm more than that. Surely, we are all more than that? Surely those who are supporting people with PTSD, too, are more than just supporters? I think this all makes perfect sense. It's important to find yourself and know who you are. Thanks Rumors, what you said above is very helpful for me ^.

 

[rainy_daze]

That's not therapy. That's utter quackery.

I fail to see how thinking about how my feet feel on the floor does anything to help me or anyone else with mental illness. It makes little sense to me.

I disagree. I managed to stay in a room for a physical exam I was dreading, when I was close to dissociating, by being aware of all my surroundings, and unfortunately, feeling the physical pain. I did this by taking in what I could see, what I could hear, what I could feel and reminding myself that it was 2014. I also tried to remind myself I was safe there, in that room. Maybe that sounds silly to you, but it worked for me. I guess one man's therapy is another man's quackery.

This "quackery" worked so successfully that I feel a great accomplishment, but this grounding that I used didn't happen to me overnight. It took practice and acceptance that it might actually work. So you fail to see how it works for anyone with a mental illness, but it worked for me at a time where I needed to stay present, and not allow my brain to run away into the abuse from my past. Can you see how it worked for me, Animal?

if you've read much here, you are probably aware that SE has greatly helped other people here

What Lost Pup said. Maybe it isn't your cup of tea at all, Animal. I felt silly trying it, but I see the benefits now. I see that I can connect more to my body, rather than living so much in my head that I walk around dazed with little awareness of my body. I haven't been to an SE therapist myself, but I have learned about grounding from others on here. If you can find something like this technique, something that fits your world view maybe, then I reckon you will start dealing with things @Animalliberator , that's just my honest opinion.

I'm sure it's been said on here that therapy is not a "one size fits all" kind of thing, but there are many things to be tried (lots of threads if you search). Even things outside therapy.

the therapist had a client lie on a table and shined the equivalent of Christmas lights on them

This did make me laugh, a lot. I wouldn't mock it until I tried it though I suppose, if I felt I had exhausted all other avenues of help. That is me though.

I've stuck with a therapy that at times greatly confuses me, but people in my life and on the forum have noticed a difference in me, and I believe them. If you're interested it is Cognitive Analytical Therapy (CAT), but again, it is in the early days, so it's evidence based peer reviewed stuff is still being published. I also seem to have been given more than the recommended sessions for it. There are some journal articles on CAT if you search online. CAT won't work if you believe there is nothing wrong with the way you think about your life and the past, and if you're lazy (like I was in the beginning, for whatever reason). I still have a lot to deal with, but it is helping. I hope you find what you need to help yourself.

 

[Tinyflame]

I really liked Abstract's posts and rainy_daze's #104.

Animal, perhaps like Anthony and Abstract said, concentrating first on what is precluding the ptsd focus might be a better route.

I know you have said you will never get violent, and I totally believe you. Do you think the thought of (that) these or any therapies might make you lose control of that tight rein? Because feeling worse as you go is actually a sign of progress. It's the concept and necessity of having grounding methods and ways to cope to manage those feelings that is scary. Those sorts of things, I respectfully think do take a real leap of faith.

 

[CrazyHorse]

CrazyHorse, I'm puzzled by what you've said. Somatic Experiencing (SE) and Gestalt are completely different therapies.

Okay? Now I am puzzeld too :) I may have confused the two because the therapist who worked with SE on me always explained about Gestalt methods (she calls herself a Gestalt therapist). She never put the label Somatic Experiencing on her methods. Therefore, I percieved the methods mentioned in this thread as being Gestalt methods just under a more international and popular name (SE).

Thank you for letting me know! I will certainly look into this!

 

[rainy_daze]

I'm still reading Animal. It's a large thread. I think it's very mature that you said you will read and think about everyone's responses. I've seen people on here read things in a tone almost sometimes, and they flip out or end up getting banned. I may have been guilty of mis-reading the tone of writing on here before as well, I'm not sure, I can't remember. However you haven't flipped out, so I'm glad.

Years ago, I once went 12 days on only 2 hours of sleep

Did you end up in hospital, having a nervous breakdown or psychotic episode or some form of being completely out of touch with reality? If you don't mind me asking, and you haven't already spoken of that in a later post. I'm only up to this one right now.

I only ask because I have never heard of anyone managing 2 hours of sleep in 12 days without losing their mind. Sadly, I have been hospitalised from lack of sleep over several days and I was out of touch with reality. That is another topic though, and this is your thread, but know that I have experienced insomnia almost to the degree you have mentioned, although not 12 days, and it was a truly terrifying and indescribable nightmare. So I feel for you if that happened to you with that level of insomnia. If it never, as in you had no hallucinations at all or delusions, what happened?

Edit: Did the snarling thing happen during the 12 days of 2 hours sleep? How did you manage to come out of that without any medical interventions? It sounds like a psychosis to me, that story, but that is just my honest opinion. Were you aware of reality when this was happening?