Love the art, hate the artist?

[Rose White]

I was listening to poet Saul Williams today and he referenced a book of essays by his teacher, playwright Pearl Cleage called “Mad at Miles”, which is a kind of handbook for women in abusive relationships. In it she writes, “I cannot listen to the muted tones of Miles Davis’ trumpet without hearing the muted screams of the women he was notorious for beating and abusing.”

It made me think of this thread. Saul said, “It was a lesson in drawing a line between a man and his music.” He talks about being a critical listener and how that “doesn’t necessarily reflect prudishness, it simply opens the gates of considering whether a song or moment is worth it. You develop a radar and are perhaps less shocked as abusers often tell you who they are.”

I find that kind of true. When I reflect on famous people who were caught abusing they *did* often tell about it ahead of time. Like Louis C.K. and R. Kelly.

 

[user27357]

just to do the full rotation on this subject I spent some hours on a recent sleepless night researching bad press on a few favorite musicians and songwriters. Misogyny abounds among male artists of the 70's and 80's. No surprise there, these guys were young and carefree sex was like the current weather conditions for them, it was there, they were young, no harm no foul maybe maybe not.
Higher level crimes among my list of researched artists range from DUI and drug charges to domestic abuse and battery, often not prosecuted, many times discounted, not easily proven without court records and in an environment where everyone is watching and listening for a morsel of info lots of people speak up with unprovable allegations and opinions based on what people seem to want to hear.
Hell, even with a court trial, does anyone believe OJ didn't do it?
If all it takes is an allegation to get an artists work removed from popular media there will be no one left. Name the nicest guy you can find in the Hollywood zeitgeist, the most highly regarded musical proponent of human rights, the most accepted author of positivity, anyone held in high esteem really, and there will be negatives easily found on line.
I choose to believe what I want to believe I guess. Anyone can be accused. And I can see it if I want to or turn a blind eye if I want to. Maybe the reason I cut Michael Jackson from my playlists is because I believe he was a pedophile and it is inexcusable. Maybe it is because I won a bet concerning how many times he was going to grab his crotch during a super bowl halftime performance in the 80's. It was a lot and I rolled my eyes at the performance and still do. Maybe his pedophilia just supportrs an opinion I already had?
Artists are people in a fishbowl, and it lasts long after they pass on. History doesn't treat anyone kindly really. For example, I didn't know anyone had a bad word for Mother Teresa until I read this thread.
I ask that anyone that knows me sees the positives with as much clarity as the negatives and gives me a fair verdict in the end. If you think beat it and thriller are additions to the worlds total musicality and some how can be seen as separate from the artists personal negatives who am I to judge you if you want to see the sum total as acceptable enough to keep it around?
I like Frank Zappa's total pragmatism on the subject- Not a direct quote I could find but after seeing a few shows and watching a few interviews it was made pretty clear:

It's all just vibrating air. There are many many ways to keep the air around you from vibrating in the same patterns that he created somewhere in a studio or during a live performance if it offends you.

Right on Frank, it's all up to the listener to stay in the equation or retreat from exposure, bottom f'n line brother.

 

[Rose White]

If all it takes is an allegation to get an artists work removed from popular media

Well… I don’t think it’s that easy! Usually it’s the opposite! People don’t want to believe allegations of abuse because it will ruin the vibe. Also, there’s a difference between allegations and convictions—the rumor mill for celebrities is always fun.

Name the nicest guy you can find in the Hollywood zeitgeist, the most highly regarded musical proponent of human rights, the most accepted author of positivity, anyone held in high esteem really, and there will be negatives easily found on line.

I’m going to pick this apart. First of all, when you look at the *highest* regarded of a certain set, then yes I agree there’s more likely to be dirt on them. But if you were to pick ten random authors from a bookstore shelf, ten random bands from your Spotify library, ten random athletes from an Olympic year—I would be surprised if you turned up dirt on one.

I’ll try it. I have a stupidly huge music library. I will pick ten random artists (the next ones that come up on my whole library playlist) and see what I get. I will only look at ones who have Wikipedia pages.

1. Andrew Oldham Orchestra—Andrew Oldham has lived a life without being accused of abusing anyone and is an old man now. Sued the Verve for unauthorized use of his song, as is his legal right.
2. Childish Gambino—Donald Glover has lived a life without being accused of abusing anyone, worked widely in music, movies, and art. Is private, spiritual, and has had some medical issues.
3. The Avalanches—Australian electronic music group who have not been accused of abusing anyone. They sample a lot of other artists for their music but no one has sued them.
4. Firehouse Five Plus Two—Dixieland Jazz band that played at Disneyland and was made up of Disneyland animators, notably Harper Goff, Ward Kimball, Ed Penner, and Frank Thomas. All those men had well-known careers as animators and voice actors. Three of the four had life-long spouses and they all died old without being accused of abusing anyone.
5. Peter Doyle—Australian pop singer who found fame with the New Seekers. Died from throat cancer at age 50. No abuse allegations.
6. Otyken—(introduced to me on the forum last week by @ms spock ) Siberian Indigenous music group that mixes folk, pop, and electronic music. More like an art collective for indigenous Siberians. Have faced setbacks due to sanctions on Russia. None of the many members have been found to be abusing anyone, but this is a new band so maybe a less reliable data point.
7. Everything But the Girl—English pop music duo who adorably married after being a couple for 27 years. The man advocates for environmental issues. Neither has been accused of abusing anyone.
8. Lucille Bogan—one of the top three classic female blues artists. Openly sang about drinking, sex, and prostitution. Her lyrics at times seemed to condone self-destructive behavior, so she’s the first one to tip the scales. Even though she wasn’t accused of abusing anyone nor disclosed any abuse, she sang outright about self-destructive behavior. (Hmmm, I’ll have to think about whether I want to listen to her, even if she is a classic blues singer, though this is the opposite of the thread topic, more like love the artist, but the art is distasteful.)
9. 7 Year Bitch—American riot grrl punk band. None of the members have been accused of abusing anyone or have disclosed any abuse. They were all surrounded by heroin unfortunately and lost friends and one early band member to substance use.
10. The Greyboy Allstars—American soul-jazz-funk band. Most of the members are well respected and well known in the music world and none have been accused of abusing anyone.

I think that if you look closer you will see that most famous people are just boring people like us who happened to “break into the business”. I think we just especially remember the ones who were accused or convicted. And those are the topic of the thread. I’m pushing back that anyone famous enough has done things deserving them to be cancelled.

 

[user27357]

i think you are correct

think that if you look closer you will see that most famous people are just boring people like us who happened to “break into the business”.

yep. we definitely agree on this. From personal experiences with musicians in general they are just like us for the most part.

If all it takes is an allegation to get an artists work removed from popular media there will be no one left

isnt it great that it takes more than an allegation?
When Tipper Gore was trying to ban some musicians and put warning labels on albums in the 80’s, John Denver testified in front if her “committee” that he had been effectively banned on some outlets due to the “Rocky Mountain High” lyric promoting drug use. I still laugh about that one.

I am glad that @Rose White picked her ten musicians to research first because she liked them, second by random selection. It is also a happy result that they came back clean of abuse allegations!
My list is far from clean, and i would have been surprised if they had been. But I am glad they are all available on spotify and we can all make up our own minds about their musical worth.

 

[Rose White]

@enough I took the theory that the more highly acclaimed the more sort there is on them and thought, well hat if we only look at highly acclaimed musicians?

So I made a list of what could be considered ten of the most highly acclaimed jazz musicians:

1. Louis Armstrong — foundational architect of jazz improvisation and soloistic style.

2. Duke Ellington — unmatched composer/bandleader; reshaped the orchestra as a jazz art form.

3. Charlie Parker — central creator of bebop; transformed harmony and phrasing.

4. Miles Davis — led multiple revolutions (cool jazz, modal, post-bop, fusion).

5. John Coltrane — spiritual and technical force; major innovations in harmonic and modal language.

6. Thelonious Monk — one of jazz’s most distinctive composers; deep influence on modern harmony.

7. Billie Holiday — defining jazz vocalist; emotional phrasing and melodic reinterpretation.

8. Ella Fitzgerald — iconic jazz singer; virtuoso of swing and scat; long-lasting influence.

9. Charles Mingus — towering composer/bassist; linked big-band tradition with avant-garde impulses.

10. Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers — more than a bandleader: a whole institution that shaped generations of modern jazz.

Miles Davis and Charles Mingus are documented to have abused others. Charlie Parker had a chaotic lifestyle that hurt others around him but he wasn’t intentionally abusive, more negligent. The seven others have no allegations or evidence of being abusers, though it was well documented the at Billie Holiday was an abuse victim.

So… 20%?

 

[user27357]

Name the nicest guy you can find -anyone held in high esteem really, and there will be negatives easily found on line.

UNCLE!
I made a gross generalisation didnt I?
Sometimes i need to remember my own past posts

“ALL gross generalisations are ALWAYS wrong, ALL the time.”
-@enough, a few times over the years on here

 

[parrotthepolly]

I like Frank Zappa's total pragmatism on the subject- Not a direct quote I could find but after seeing a few shows and watching a few interviews it was made pretty clear:

It's all just vibrating air. There are many many ways to keep the air around you from vibrating in the same patterns that he created somewhere in a studio or during a live performance if it offends you.

Right on Frank, it's all up to the listener to stay in the equation or retreat from exposure, bottom f'n line brother.

It's not air, it's sub atomic particles which produces different vibrations that are what your senses perceive!!!

 

[user27357]

UNCLE!
is there a sarcasm emoji? you are of course correct.
Frank was definitely exploring the window that free speech fits through, and his mysogony is well documented, evidently my understanding of the mechanism of hearing his work is also limited, but the bottom line still works: turn it off if it offends. look away, keep your money in your pocket.

 

[Ecdysis]

Thank you for the interesting debate!

 

[FMCA]

I was also really suprised how Michael Jacksons songs didn't drop off the face of the earth. I thought am I missing something ? when people were still playing his songs. It was like he hasnt done anything wrong

 

[Rose White]

I think part of that is because he was acquitted but even musicians who were convicted of or well known to abuse are still widely played. Some of the most notorious: Chuck Berry, Ike Turner, James Brown, Sid Vicious, R. Kelly, Miles Davis, P. Diddy.

I think it’s hard to separate good memories about listening to music from the actions of the artist or producer. Phil Spector comes to mind. The Beatles album “Let It Be” was produced by him.

Now I’m thinking a lot about how hard it is to separate from the mesh of abusers in the capitalist system. Corporations run by human rights abusers and perpetrators of domestic violence or financial crimes… erm… leaders of state. Pick your battles I guess.

 

[FMCA]

Some people will do anything to make money, no ethics and values, they don’t care about anyone just their own ego. To look like the best. Sad