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Redefining Mentally Ill

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I may be irreparably damaged which may be reflected in my continued statements of 'I am NOT them'.
You're not irreparably damaged. Get that out of your head. And righteous anger makes you nothing but righteously angry.

To quote from the Bible - but before I do = I hover between religious and agnostic, so this is not a sermon:

What I find confusing about Christians' take on the Bible is the notion that we should turn the other cheek, forgive, and not strike, and love our neighbour as ourselves. Isn't it interesting that not even God does this? Some will be sent to hell to suffer. So. They will not be forgiven. Period. Matthew contains the only real info on who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Those with empathy (you clothed me when I was naked, you fed me when I was hungry, etc) will go to heaven; those without empathy will go straight to hell. It doesn't say "you didn't get angry, you didn't take revenge, you didn't kill your enemies in their sleep..... ' Perhaps we have a very screwed up idea of what 'being a good person' is all about.

I still believe that things need to change - but since that won't happen soon I need to shore up and get moving on taking proper steps myself.
I agree.
Robert Greene's one stragegy is 'trading space for time'. That's where I started, and I think it is where you need to start as well. His books on war and power are invaluable.
 
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@Pencil , my take on "turning the other cheek is this". Jesus wasn't talking about doing that out of fear or helplessness, or because he was a victim. He was talking about doing it out of "love". It's a much different energy. That section comes during a discussion on loving those who wrong us, as God is said to love us, in spite of our behavior. I think it's given as an extreme example of the idea, rather than a recommendation to not defend yourself. In a sense, we actually are doing the "bad guys" a favor by standing up to them. How else are they likely to consider that they might BE "bad guys"?

@shimmerz , you're far to smart and persistent to be "irreparably damaged"!
 
OMG the 'turn the other cheek' thing. I had this ingrained into my young brain after my adoption. Kids in the non-Catholic school yard pelting me with snowballs, running me over with bikes, they had me pegged. All the while when I went home and told my parents I was told to 'turn the other cheek'. So much so that I didn't bother telling my parents when I was run over by a car.

Both of you are right - irreparably is a word I generally use when overwhelmed. I will get over it - these postings have me overwhelmed in realizing this is such a humongous seeming problem but I have been through worse. Thanks for the reminder guys to take it for what it is. Just another hurdle albeit a large one but I have great people around me thank god. You have changed someone's life through this thread. I hope you can take that in. :hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:
 
@shimmerz , one:hug: is probably my personal limit, but thanks! One of the really cool things about this place seems to be that, with so many people, from so many backgrounds, we kind of have "compensating errors" and can learn so much as well as teach so much. I'm glad you started this discussion!
 
My son is in Aikido (learning how to fight),

Aikido isn't about learning how to fight. Aikido is not only self-defence, but it's self defence where you aim not to harm the person you're defending yourself from. The way I would translate "aikido" would be something like "the way of effectively - and harmoniously - meeting oncoming energy".

It's interesting that you bring aikido into this discussion, because the basis of aikido is self defence without aggression or rancour - both being equally important. You need to be safe without getting involved, including in a negative way, with the person who is threatening you.

And the perspective is the perspective of seeing what we're threated with as energy, not that of individual people and where we think they score on the evil-ometer versus why they might be how they are. Assessing their history and motivations isn't relevant. Staying safe, getting away from them, and letting them go is.
 
I thank you all so much for being so generous with your time. @Hashi and @FridayJones I have heard about Aikedo many times over the last while. I take that as a sign. What you say @Hashi really resonates. And I am all about energy. I need things to incorporate an energetic 'feel' to it in order to understand it.

I have to ask - there is one posting on this page that I just haven't gotten yet so I haven't Liked it (as I said before - just because I don't 'get' it). What if I don't hate. Sounds strange but I don't. I also wanted to understand what the significance of the word 'Watch' was in that posting. I may be being dumb as a stump, but I just can't take it in. Maybe because I don't 'get hate'.

what we're threated with as energy, not that of individual people
I should know this. You are right. Too focused on the person. I can really take this in @Hashi. Thank you for the reminder.

@Pencil, I will definitely start where you suggest. My son also suggested these types of books quite some time ago. You I will listen to - him apparently not. :-)

I am pretty secure in thinking not everyone is glad I started this discussion, but for myself and I believe for others, there are a ton of golden nuggets here. I love that I hang out with people who are so damned smart!
 
What if I don't hate
What if you don't? You don't have to hate someone else to defend yourself! Do the Aikido thing and just send all that nasty energy right back at 'em.

I also wanted to clarify something I said earlier. I don't think you can "beat people better." But sometimes you can make them go away with real threats. They don't get any better (probably) but you've made it clear that their actions are unacceptable - which may be the best anyone can do.

On the "Turn the other cheek" thing I just looked it up to get the context and found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek
I don't buy the Christian anarchist interpretation, but I'm pretty good with the others. They contextualize it nicely. It clearly doesn't mean "let anyone who wants to abuse you do so, and make yourself available for more abuse." Leaving aside all the consequences for the abusee, it is hard to see how that counts as "loving" toward the abuser. What horrible little worlds they must live in.

Ok, the Joanna Russ thing. It is a step by step recounting of the logic of how the abuser turns the whole thing around on the victim and makes the victim into the bad guy.... and so a legitimate target for abuse. Substitute in "dislike" or "am angry at" or "resent" for "hate" and see if that works better for you. Whatever negative reaction to someone else's nastiness you put in there the self-justifying logic of the abuser still runs.

@Hashi that is an exceptionally clear explanation of the philosophy of Aikido!

I am so glad this thread is helpful! And yes, an exception group of people hang out on this forum. It is always striking how smart and generous people are here.
 
Yes, resentful works well for me. I also have to read upon the turn it on the victim thing. That is a theme for me as well. That was an excellent explanation - as all of these have been and I thank you. It has just taken me a bit to 'catch up' with you all. I am still working on that but I can feel things shifting. This will change so many things in my life around. I hope each poster in this thread knows how valuable their input has been to me.
 
What if I don't hate. Sounds strange but I don't.
I don't hate either, so I did a dumb thing, and that was trying to ignore her and my anger. What we have to do is take emotion completely out of it, for hate could still be swayed to 'pity' or 'mercy' or 'compassion', which would be absolutely fatal. (I know, from experience.) When you play chess and you have any emotion regarding your opponent you've already lost the game. Don't hate, don't fear - see it as an impersonal force and take action against it, as you would to an impending natural disaster. And if you do have to take action that will have destructive consequences for the other party, do it with the same lack of emotion. I'm preaching to myself :x3:


I love that I hang out with people who are so damned smart!
Ditto.
 
see it as an impersonal force and take action against it, as you would to an impending natural disaster.
Wow, sounds hard but I will absolutely try this. This sounds like a crystal key for me.


And if you do have to take action that will have destructive consequences for the other party, do it with the same lack of emotion.
YIKES! Jeez man, this still makes me sick to think of. Reading now! I gotta figure this one out and how to get myself out of this mindset!

So @Pencil, if you are preaching to yourself I guess that means that you can't tell me how to do this? ;-) Is there a @FridayJones in the house? ;-)
 
I'm getting a bit punchy / heading to bed... But I just burst out laughing. "What? I'm the resident sociopath, here?"

Seriously, though... Emotional distancing in these types of situations I read 2 ways.

1) Punishing or disciplining kids. 99% of the time when I'm punishing or disciplining my son (or more accurately he needs it, for whatever infraction) I'm not angry with him, at all. If I am? I usually take a timeout. But most of the time I'm simply not mad. Or even disappointed. He's done something, and he's in trouble, but that doesn't mean that I'm emotionally invested in it (My rule of thumb is that getting emotionally involved in an argument with a child is like getting emotionally involved in an argument with a piece of furniture. We all do it from time to time, and it's usually regrettable.). Just because he is throwing a tantrum, doesn't mean that I have to, also.

Trigger warning for physical violence...

2) I don't usually take any pleasure in hurting other people. If a thing has to be done, I do it, but I don't usually enjoy it. Nor am I necessarily angry about it. The two often come hand in hand. Example: My house was broken into a little while ago, and I took a maglite (heavy metal flashlight/torch about 2 feet long) to the guy's ribs. If I'd been angry about it (or enjoying it) I could have beaten him to a pulp. I didn't. I caused just enough damage to protect myself and make him go away. Was I angry at the situation? Damn straight. Was I angry at him for breaking in? You bet. But what I didn't do was to let the beast off its chain and murder the bloke. Even though it would have been legal to. If I'd had a gun? Or if I'd hit him in the neck/head? He'd probably be dead. Or if he'd run at me, instead of running away? I'd have hit him again, and again, until he stopped or he made me stop. But that different from beating him to death in a rage. Or in any other way deriving pleasure from his pain. I didn't hit him because I was angry at him. I hit him because He needed to be stopped. I stopped him. Then I stopped.

Most fights have some degree of control to them. Boxing, bar fights, school yard fights, even DV & abuse... It's actually very easy to kill / maim people. Instead, most of the time, people don't go for "softening techniques" (eyes, groin, windpipe). They go for body shots. Muscle and heavy bone. They strike to hurt, not kill.

Amongst advanced fighters...the person to get angry first? Usually loses. Anger clouds your judgement. You make stupid mistakes. You don't want to be angry. You want to be cool, calm, and collected. You want to be able to act and react and think on your feet. NOT be overcome with emotion.

... Which leads right back into parenting. When you're disciplining a child, you want the same thing. You want to be cool, calm, and collected. When you're blinded by emotion, you make mistakes.

Military, police, martial artists... All train to remove emotion from the equation. Learning how to fight is more about that, than technique. Aikido was mentioned above as not an actual fighting style per se. Because it's an extremely fluid style of getting away 90% of the time (it was founded on a samurai being caught on the ground, and needing to get to their weapons & horse, so it's all about getting away from assailants in order to reach safety). Yes. Technique is important. But what's more important is being able to think clearly, and calmly, under great stress. To remove emotion from the equation.

ETA... I should mention, I do take a lot of pleasure in some fighting. With an equally matched opponent, using mutually agreed upon rules, it can be a great deal of fun. Sometimes, yeah, it's blowing off steam (angry to begin with) other times it's our fun from start to finish. On both sides. Like getting a jab/shot at the doctor, or blisters on your feet from hiking, there is some mutually agreed upon pain... But it's not beyond what you agree to. It's not cruelty, or abuse, or any of the kind of greater over lesser... None of that. If I'm squaring off against a cop friend of mine, we're both going to be sweaty, dusty, and maybe a little bruised... And we're going to be laughing. Like kids kicking a soccerball come home laughing the same way. That's an entirely different kind of violence than my ex who would pinch -no bruise- but it hurt a helluva lot more, because he was deriving a different kind of pleasure from a different kind of hurting someone. I could get more hurt sparring with a friend, than my ex being abusive... But the abuse hurts on an entirely different level. It's an entirely different thing to be fighting for fun, than to be fighting for your life.

Fighting for fun ... Fighting for need ... Fighting for cruelty
3 very different things.
 
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